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Old 24-03-2019, 19:37   #1
SAM
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Anchoring over bow rollers?

I recently purchased a 1985 C & C Landfall 38. The boat has a double bow roller for the anchors. One 35 lb. Delta and one #23 15 lb. Fortress. I have yet to anchor as I am in the Chesapeake Bay and do a lot of marina hopping. When I do anchor this summer will it be okay to run the anchor rode over one of the anchor rollers? My anchor line is 10' of 5/16" BBB chain w/ 110' of Yale 8 plait line. If I run the line thru one of the dock line openings (small 1" Delrin rollers here) I don't think I would like the angle of pull. If I run it thru the bow rollers I can use a Chafe-Pro chafe guard for added protection where the line exits the bow roller. I would not be able to use the Chafe-Pro if I exit the line where my dock lines exit as the openings are too small for that. One last question is are bow rollers designed to take the load of an anchor in light to moderate winds up to say 40 mph max? Seldom see 40 mph and up here in the C-bay but it does happen. We usually stay put when it does. Thank you in advance to all who respond.
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Old 24-03-2019, 20:21   #2
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Hi Sam,
Without a photo I am going to go out on a limb and say you are absolutely fine anchoring over the bow rollers, that is exactly what they are intended for. Do you have the double rollers like those in the photo I am attaching? The problem with chafe should be minimal but it is not hard to rig up some chafe gear as you mentioned, or even with an old fire hose around the rode, as it passes over the roller. What I am more concerned about is your mention of only 10' of chain and 110' of line, that's not very much unless you know you'll always be anchored in water less than 20' deep, and even then... yeah, you need more. Do you have a windlass? I'd quintuple the chain and triple the line myself, at least. Then I'd get the same for the other anchor. Maybe won't ever find the need to have all 350' out, but I bet there will be a day when you'll be glad you have it. I've never sailed in Chesapeake but if there is a chance you'll be anchored over an old car or other debris in the mud, go with more chain.
Congratulations on the boat! Yer in for some fun now!
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Old 24-03-2019, 21:05   #3
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

The roller is fine but always use a snubber so the windlass is not taking the load
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Old 24-03-2019, 21:15   #4
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
The roller is fine but always use a snubber so the windlass is not taking the load

Small correction -- always use a snubber to snub the chain -- to introduce elasticity in the rode to dampen snatch loads. But you normally don't need a snubber on a rope rode like the OP has.


To take the load off the windlass, use a chain lock or belaying strop (or with rope rode, cleat off to a strong cleat or sampson post). Snubbers are usually unsuitable for this purpose unless they are very long and carefully protected from chafe, and even then it is questionable whether nylon is suitable at all (https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-a...right-rode.pdf). In order to stretch enough to do effective snubbing, snubbers are normally weaker than the the chain. So if this is all you have to keep the load off the windlass, you have introduced a weak link into your anchoring system.


Sorry to be pedantic about it, but I've seen boats lost when the snubber broke (as they often do, because in strong weather most snubbers are being cycled near their breaking strength) and the chain ran out, because the chain was not belayed in any other way.
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Old 24-03-2019, 21:23   #5
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Small correction -- always use a snubber to snub the chain -- to introduce elasticity in the rode to dampen snatch loads. But you normally don't need a snubber on a rope rode like the OP has.


To take the load off the windlass, use a chain lock or belaying strop (or with rope rode, cleat off to a strong cleat or sampson post). Snubbers are usually unsuitable for this purpose unless they are very long and carefully protected from chafe, and even then it is questionable whether nylon is suitable at all (https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-a...right-rode.pdf). In order to stretch enough to do effective snubbing, snubbers are normally weaker than the the chain. So if this is all you have to keep the load off the windlass, you have introduced a weak link into your anchoring system.


Sorry to be pedantic about it, but I've seen boats lost when the snubber broke (as they often do, because in strong weather most snubbers are being cycled near their breaking strength) and the chain ran out, because the chain was not belayed in any other way.
If the snubber broke it was inadequate or in poor shape. Regardless the rode load (chain or line) should not be on the windlass. I agree that tieing it off to a sampson post is another method.
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Old 24-03-2019, 22:02   #6
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
If the snubber broke it was inadequate or in poor shape. Regardless the rode load (chain or line) should not be on the windlass. I agree that tieing it off to a sampson post is another method.

Most definitely the load should be off the windlass -- windlass won't hold anything, and you can break it if the clutch is on too hard, even in mild conditions. We certainly agree there.



But I disagree about the snubber -- unless it is very long, so that you can get the needed amount of stretch with a line thick enough to be as strong as the chain, it will be weaker than the chain. And when you figure in the loss of strength which nylon has when wet, and the loss of strength under cyclical loading, it is pretty hard, even if the snubber is 100 feet long, to come close to the strength of the chain and still be stretchy enough to be a good snubber. I don't think I've ever seen anyone using a snubber that was realistically even 1/3 the strength of the chain.


The ground tackle is only as strong as the weakest link. If you don't use a chain lock, or a belaying strop, that weakest link is going to be your snubber. This is simply not a good idea. Why would you use chain with breaking strength of 6 tonnes, attached to the boat with a piece of nylon which after factoring in wetness, cyclical loads, etc., may only hold 1 tonne? This is just not smart. The chain should be attached to the boat in a matter which is as strong as the chain itself.



I didn't even mention vulnerability to chafe, which is inherent to all stretchy materials, and which with nylon, is much greater when wet.
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Old 25-03-2019, 03:18   #7
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Maybe off topic..
We had 3 anchors on about 2 tonne or less including crew. Anchors were perfect . different anchors on different bottoms. Always set perfect.
In 1 foot of strong swell (it was tiny but strong with shore gradient large sandy (Second valley, south Australia).
We opened non corroded 8 mm proof chain; not enough play.
Since then we've always used more length. I know little about anchoring having usually always hidden but I know that anchor had set.
Ropes good to absorb shock but chain lays and pulls anchor better. No idea what load 8mm proof chain is but it surprised us that day. Calm beautiful day, just swell.
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Old 25-03-2019, 05:33   #8
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM View Post
I recently purchased a 1985 C & C Landfall 38. The boat has a double bow roller for the anchors. One 35 lb. Delta and one #23 15 lb. Fortress. I have yet to anchor as I am in the Chesapeake Bay and do a lot of marina hopping. When I do anchor this summer will it be okay to run the anchor rode over one of the anchor rollers?

Not sure I understand the question... because that's exactly what the bow rollers are there for. As others have said, take the weight off of the windlass as you set the anchor.

If I had two bow rollers and a way to deal with independent rodes, I'd have two complete systems.... so each would be "on call" all the time.

If it helps, our experience with Fortress FX-23 anchor here in the Chesapeake have been very good... although we eventually swapped that out for an FX-37 (semi-heavy boat, high windage). We keep that one dismantled as a spare (no second bow roller).

Experience with the 35-lb Delta has varied, mostly depending on the combined total of weight and windage... and the make-up of the slime on the bottom at various places. Not suitable for our current boat, but it kinda worked on the two previous boats... mostly.

If you find yourself dissatisfied with the Delta, look up the Chesapeake mud tests Fortress did (Solomons Island area) a few years ago... and you can consider selecting from their list of better performers. Or.... we now use an anchor they didn't test as our primary, an adjustable (pivoting) SuperMAX. (I offered to let them use ours for their test, since it wasn't part of their original plan... but by then it was a bit too late to work it into the mix.)

We changed our rode from all-chain to a combo rope/chain... with the leading chain length being about 25'. That's all about the time it takes to clean Chesapeake mud from the chain links when we bring everything back aboard.

-Chris
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Old 25-03-2019, 06:49   #9
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

The stemhead fitting incorporates bow rollers for both chain and rope, and closed fairleads. There is no provision for a keeper pin in the bow roller, however, and the cheeks of the fitting do not extend high enough to guarantee that the rode will not jump out of the roller when the boat pitches at anchor. Use the rollers to handle the anchor, and use the fairleads to secure the snubber (loose rode over rollers).




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Old 25-03-2019, 08:51   #10
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

We have a double roller installed on the bow, but in 20 yrs cruising (Asia to the Caribb) we've never needed to use a double bow anchor. So we carry the backup in our aft lazarette, and use the other bow roller for the snubber. We let out and then set the anchor (typically a 5:1 scope), then connect the snubber to the chain and to a bow cleat and let it out over the 2nd bow roller (almost in line), then let out some extra chain to give the snubber some stretch room, and then put the chain thru a chain lock bolted thru the deck and just prior to the windlass. Seems to work well!
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Old 25-03-2019, 09:12   #11
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Was Rapid bay, not Second valley.
Walking off stern to go fetch lunch. My mistake was securing line.

My point being and please correct if wrongly informing..

10' doesn't seem like much chain. Nylon doesn't float but chain really helps set anchors by laying. Swell will lift and lay but the lay allows the anchor to drag into a set. By using chain to lay you can attach the chain to the head of the anchor and run it along the anchor attaching it to the foot via a breaker. The breaker won't take load provided the chain is off sufficient length to lay regardless of swell heights.eg when the chain lifts it does not lift near the anchor. The breaker chain is only there to retrieve a well set anchor such as a plough that has dug in well or a grapple on a rock. Jerking it from above would break breaker, jerking it along lay does knot because there is near no shear force on breaker.
Personally, I'd invest in a longer chain. It's your boat. I can't help with chain lengths nor strengths. I don't know. Rope although the nonfloating nylon is more buoyant than chain and will tend to lift rather than lay. 10' doesn't seem much even in shallows.
Please look into that..

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Old 25-03-2019, 09:48   #12
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Bow rollers should be fine.
If I may, I'd suggest more chain for that size boat. usually, it is specified that you have the same length chain as the OA boat. To be on the conservative side, I'd go for at least 50 feet and splice that rode directly to the chain.
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Old 25-03-2019, 09:55   #13
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

In general... NEVER!
Calm or max to 10 knots for a splash - yep.
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:13   #14
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
The stemhead fitting incorporates bow rollers for both chain and rope, and closed fairleads. There is no provision for a keeper pin in the bow roller, however, and the cheeks of the fitting do not extend high enough to guarantee that the rode will not jump out of the roller when the boat pitches at anchor. Use the rollers to handle the anchor, and use the fairleads to secure the snubber (loose rode over rollers).




I liked your writing at the bottom which wasn't printed with quote above. Something about if I can't afford to do it properly then when a problem arises how with I afford to fix it.

I'm not pedantic. I don't understand what you wrote GordMay. I believe your new to anchoring Sam; just in case.
We use an anchor similar to your other one and a fisherman anchor. We had 1 similar to the Delta; or a Delta, which was the break chain loss.

The Delta has a shank eye which many shackle chain to. We shackle to the crown eye and lay the chain along the shank, attaching chain to shank eye via a weak attachment. We do the same with every anchor that has both a crown and a shank eye. After many years of anchoring we have never needed to break the weak link but it's there.
I don't understand roller attachment to hold anchor, nor winch strength to retrieve if you use winch. Your boat has much more volume to most probably shear pull vertical through mud if needed. Maybe you guys need to shackle shank? We hand pull and lock into a well.
I know I don't like spending money but I would invest in boat security with a lot more than 10 foot of chain because lay does most the work. Like tug a war, the anchor man won't pull the whole opposition team, he's behind a good lay.

Best of luck
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:22   #15
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Agree with GordMay, if using chain rode use two seperate snubber lines and chain hooks lead through port and starboard fairleads [or directly from hard points, such as stainless steel loops that extended out from the bow so as to not incur chaff from fairleads and deck rail].
I have seen far too many bow rollers that have been bent by forces induced by anchoring [and also by bashing into piles and walls]. They are meant to roll the anchor they are not intended to take the snatch load of a boat at anchor or mooring. The pin that forms the axle of the roller will bend and then the roller will no longer roll.

If a boat uses a mostly nylon rode, a snubber can still be used attached with hitches to reduce chafe at the bow roller, hawsehole, or chock. The snubber being of smaller length can be readily replaced when the snubber reveals chaff and / or has undergone considerable amount of cyclic loading and become subject to breaking. It is easy to place chaff guard on a short snubber where it is exposed to rubbing.

Do not rely on one snubber; always have redundancy as the snubber will take up the cyclic working load and will eventually fail as it should be the weakest link in the anchoring system. And add a stopper line to the chain and to a hard point to relieve the windlass from a load if the snubber breaks or becomes unhooked from the chain so that the short snubber to be the last resort connecting the working load rode to the boat.

Reference article: https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruisin...r-snubber-tips

Snipet therefrom copied below.

"Setting Up Snubbers

It is a good idea to have one set of snubbers to use up to 35 knots and another heavy-duty set to use beyond. Most people will never experience winds over 35 knots in a recognized anchorage, so the need for “storm” snubbers is exceptional, and the occasional use of a “standard” snubber in 40 knots will not be catastrophic. For cruising around your home port, the absence of storm snubbers is not going to be an issue—you will have access to decent forecasts and know the local bolt holes. However, if you are going to cruise in high latitudes storm snubbers and spares are strongly recommended.


Though keeping within nylon’s Working Load Limit [WLL] will maximize their life, snubbers are consumables and will need to be replaced, perhaps every two years depending on how often you anchor. If you do not replace your snubbers, you should fully expect them to eventually fail (which they will do, with the noise of a rifle shot).

You will roughly double the life of your snubber if you install one on each side and join them at a common chain hook (a bridle). We leave the snubbers on our catamaran permanently installed—they are not in the way and the excess is stored as you would sheets. They are best made from three-strand or multiplait nylon. Bridles can also be employed on monohulls.

Another option for monohulls is to have an “everyday” snubber on one side and a storm snubber on the other. Let the two snubbers meet at a common chain hook and only bring the storm snubber into service when needed by simply slacking off the lighter snubber so the storm snubber takes the tension.


We have tried all sorts of methods for attaching the snubber to the chain, and the simplest is a cheap G70 cradle or saddle hook, used in the transport industry. Most “marine” hooks are quite expensive and are seldom tested (and even when tested you have no idea what the specification or test data means). Hooks used in the lifting industry are made for specific chain sizes, and in my experience chain retention is much more secure than the hooks sold for marine application. An alternative is a Prusik knot (our recommendation for a tied attachment), some form of hitch or a Dyneema soft shackle.

Given that snubbers can fail, you must also secure the chain to a strong point on deck so that there is no chance of the snatch loads being transferred to the windlass should the snubber break. The best way to do this is to simply attach a second, short snubber to both the chain and a strong point.

When you rig the snubber you need to let out some slack in the chain, between chain hook and bow roller, to allow the snubber to stretch. If you are really clever you can estimate that slack to be, say, 15 percent of snubber stretch. This then limits the amount of stretch to which your snubber can be exposed. If you have an “everyday” snubber on one side and a storm snubber on the other, you can arrange that your storm snubber comes into play when the everyday snubber reaches 10-15 percent—this then allows both snubbers to work together.

A snubber is not a panacea. It will not make a poor anchor reliable, though it will make it less unreliable. Snubbers are simply part of your ground tackle wardrobe, along with spare anchors, spare rode, rated shackles and so on. If your spare rode is a mix of chain and nylon, it does not need a snubber; the nylon spliced to the chain will offer the required elasticity.
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