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Old 09-09-2014, 08:50   #31
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

There are fees involved to anchor in a town....pumpouts namely. And i regularly do them as do the other liveaboards in this town. But i can control that cost by the size of holding tank i have. So we pay for the services we use in that respect.

Should i have to pay for shower facilities i dont use on a ball when i can catch all the rainwater i can use?

Of the people ive met doing this they all have different reasons for being here. Health; family;boat repairs;work for a while to continue cruising. Some are here only in season and return year after year to the anchorage.

In seven years as a liveaboard i have only seen one "liveaboard" boat become derelict and that was a result of lightning blowing out a thru hull. Oh and an alcohol stove fire. So two liveaboard derelicts. And sadly in florida these accidents/acts of god are now a crime on a boat. If this had happened to folks in an on land trailer park (think no insurance) the united way would step in and help them out versus on the water the police are waiting to arrrest you for a derelict vessel.

Ive helped raise sunk boats and grounded vessels and in seven years the assistance of seatow was only required by one exceptionally hard aground cheoy lee and after a month of communal working together to free vessel did he break down and call seatow.

I guess my point is all of us in this anchorage choose to be here because i believe we are more independent and free spirited than the yacht club cruisers on a ball or at the marina and we live responsibly within our financial means and we should have that choice.



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Old 09-09-2014, 08:54   #32
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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REALITY CHECK TIME

You can't pitch your tent in a state park right now, unless you pay the camping fee first. There are limits on how long you can stay on some of the balls in the Boot Key mooring field. Something about a state verses city ball.

The point everyone seems to be ignoring is that there are plenty of places to anchor in Florida for free with no hassle from the FWC or anyone else. But these places are not close to towns, and more importantly free/cheap fresh water, stores to buy food, showers/bathrooms, trash cans/dumpsters, bars, and other facilities.

If this bill is passed the only place there will be anchoring restrictions are in towns where anchoring restrictions are passed, the rest of the state will still allow anchoring with no restrictions.

The question I have is why everyone thinks they have to anchor in a town instead of cruising and anchoring away from a town.

I thought the whole idea of cruising was to get away.
Your idea of cruising might not be other people's idea of cruising. I for instance have family and friends in the Melbourne Florida area. I like to spend the time between Thanksgiving and New years visiting before I go over to the Bahamas or down to the Keys or where ever else I choose to go. This means I tend to anchor in the mouth of the Banana river for a little over a month. It's about the only semi-sheltered anchorage in the place. Every 10 days or so I go get a pumpout and water. I can't afford to spend $90 a night for the only Marina in the area that can handle my catamaran. I seldom spend a minimum 12 hours a day on the boat and do not have the boat occupied by a person on anchor watch 24/7 to meet the FWC's proposal of the definition of anchored versus stored. I spend a lot of money at local eating establishments and stores while I'm in the area. Since I can have parts shipped to relatives in the area I often do maintenance that does not require a haul out while there. Since I'm there fairly regularly I maintain a local doctor, and accountant.

I would point out that a state or county park campground actually provides facilities that must be maintained and a staff which must be paid. The state/county does not provide anything when I'm anchored in front of a town. I must provide my own ground tackle, my own sewage facilities, my own water, and my own electricity. There is no staff to pay or infrastructure to maintain.

Maybe some cruisers like travelling from town to town. If one goes to a place like Georgetown, Exuma, one finds many people who spend the whole winter there. Are they not cruisers? I would not dare to imply that my idea of cruising was everyone else's idea of cruising.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:04   #33
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida continues

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You are completely wrong about public parks in Florida. There are in fact many parks, both state and county which maintain public "campgrounds" where you can stay in a tent or an RV. ...........
Of course there are. I was not talking about campgrounds, I was talking about parks like you might find in the center of towns and cities. I would have thought that would have been pretty clear.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:08   #34
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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............... I guess my point is all of us in this anchorage choose to be here because i believe we are more independent and free spirited than the yacht club cruisers on a ball or at the marina and we live responsibly within our financial means and we should have that choice.



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That pretty much fits the definition of homeless people except that you have a home, just no place to put it.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:21   #35
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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SNIP

Maybe some cruisers like travelling from town to town. If one goes to a place like Georgetown, Exuma, one finds many people who spend the whole winter there. Are they not cruisers? I would not dare to imply that my idea of cruising was everyone else's idea of cruising.
You must be new around here if you are not aware of multiple threads on the topic of how folks who spend the winter in Georgetown are not real cruisers and the only real cruisers are those who go South of Georgetown.

But you seem to have missed my point. There are lots of folks anchoring boats in anchorages in towns and few folks anchoring boats away from towns. As I posted earlier this is a simple Econ 101 problem. When the demand for places to anchor near a town exceeds the supply of places to anchor near a town the friction in finding a place to anchor near a town increases.

Another concept they teach in Econ 101 is opportunity cost. Cruisers who anchor in a town are viewed as not providing a revenue stream as great as cruisers who go in a marina, something you noted in your post. So why should a town forgo a chance to make more money from someone who docks at a marina by catering to folks who anchor and provide a smaller revenue stream. Why should a town not want to minimize the chance of a boat dragging its anchor by requiring a good watch schedule.

At some point the number of boats wanting to anchor in a town's anchorage reaches a critical mass forcing the town to take action. I grew up in Florida and can remember parking on US1 at Jewfish creek and fishing all night and never seeing another car. But things have changed. To quote Bob Dylan:

"Don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt will be he who has stalled."
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:21   #36
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

On the contrary i can put my home wherever I choose to put it. I guess thats the definition of full time cruiser.

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Old 09-09-2014, 09:27   #37
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida continues

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Of course there are. I was not talking about campgrounds, I was talking about parks like you might find in the center of towns and cities. I would have thought that would have been pretty clear.
If you would like to look up Wickham Park in Melbourne Florida, you will find out it is located in the middle of town. if you can call actually find middle to this suburban sprawl. $21 per night with a discount over 30 days. Of course Melbourne/brevard county provides no such facilities in the Melbourne area for boats. Titusville has a mooring field and public marina, but that is 40 some miles away from Melbourne as does Vero Beach 40 some miles to the south. There are of course some smaller parks where camping or even parking overnight are prohibited.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:34   #38
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida continues

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If you would like to look up Wickham Park in Melbourne Florida, you will find out it is located in the middle of town. if you can call actually find middle to this suburban sprawl. $21 per night with a discount over 30 days. Of course Melbourne/brevard county provides no such facilities in the Melbourne area for boats. Titusville has a mooring field and public marina, but that is 40 some miles away from Melbourne as does Vero Beach 40 some miles to the south. There are of course some smaller parks where camping or even parking overnight are prohibited.
Again just to be clear, I am not talking about campgrounds. I'm talking about the town park with the statues. I'm talking about the park with the ballfields or walking trails.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:44   #39
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

And I believe my point about the park is misconstrued. Its about being given a range of options legally. Not every cruiser has the same budget. Nor does every road traveler have the same budget. Eliminating the ability for a boat to legally anchor and forcing the use of moorings or marina facilities would diminish how many people from being able to afford cruising as a lifestyle.



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Old 09-09-2014, 09:46   #40
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

We need to have a law, to start making it illegal for pigeons to anchor on those pesky statues.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:53   #41
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

Pigeons do poop alot.

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Old 09-09-2014, 09:59   #42
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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SNIP

Eliminating the ability for a boat to legally anchor and forcing the use of moorings or marina facilities would diminish how many people from being able to afford cruising as a lifestyle.
Glad to see you understand.

This is what happens when demand outstrips supply.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:07   #43
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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Another concept they teach in Econ 101 is opportunity cost. Cruisers who anchor in a town are viewed as not providing a revenue stream as great as cruisers who go in a marina, something you noted in your post. So why should a town forgo a chance to make more money from someone who docks at a marina by catering to folks who anchor and provide a smaller revenue stream. Why should a town not want to minimize the chance of a boat dragging its anchor by requiring a good watch schedule.
You would seem to have the opinion that the only desirable medium or long term visitor is one that can provide the maximum revenue stream. I would compare the anchor outs to the difference between those RV owners who prefer and can afford luxury RV parks with those who use public park campgrounds. Private RV parks provide swimming pools various lounge facilities and sometimes beachfront access. In Brevard county even the fanciest of these charge less than $50 for a daily rate and $900 a month for a monthly rate, at least from what I could find on their web sites. The $90 a night $2800 month private marina is a total rip off. Of course the rate comes way down if you sign a yearly lease. It's not even a very nice facility, compared to the "Luxury" RV resorts available at about half the price. Brevard county businesses certainly have not told RV owners that can only pay $20 a day that they should leave after a few days as they used to do to boaters before the state anchoring laws were unified. The county in fact provides low cost RV facilities just to attract these types of visitors. They simply don't see cruisers as a significant revenue stream because they don't do anything to encourage cruisers at a reasonable price. If they put in a reasonably priced mooring field or a transient marina they might have some reason to complain about anchor outs, but since they haven't.......

If I was forced into the $90 a night marina I would not be spending any significant time in Melbourne and a lot of local businesses would loose the money I spend. I would note that my economic incentive to not having my boat drag is much greater than the locals as I'm heavily insured for liability and would possibly loose my home. I seriously doubt that there's anything my boat could do to their property that would possibly put them on the street.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:23   #44
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida continues

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Again just to be clear, I am not talking about campgrounds. I'm talking about the town park with the statues. I'm talking about the park with the ballfields or walking trails.
My point is that cities and counties and states do provide low cost alternatives in the form of parks with campgrounds to expensive private luxury RV parks. They can then tell you you can't "camp" in some public parks or on public streets. With the exception of a few experimental mooring fields the state, counties, and cities of Florida have not chosen to do this for the cruising boater or boating tourist if you prefer. This does not even begin to address federal law that says that anchoring is a part of navigation and that these laws infringe on my rights to navigate of navigable waters. I'm done for today, now I have to go do some cruising.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:36   #45
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Re: Anchoring Debate in Florida Continues

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You would seem to have the opinion that the only desirable medium or long term visitor is one that can provide the maximum revenue stream.

NO.

I have the opinion that rational actors make the decision to maximize their revenue stream and they could care less what my opinion is.

You seem to not grasp the law of supply and demand.

There are plenty of RV parks in the Keys that are impossible to get in during the season. If you try and park an RV overnight many places in the Keys you will get ticketed. I have taken my RV cross country and spent time in many national parks out west. I have also spent the night in Walmart parking lots in many places. Walmart encourages this as they have plenty of space and figure RV owners will buy something in the store. But in Miami and Homestead there are signs prohibiting this and it is enforced by security guards.

Simple Econ 101, when demand outstrips supply prices rise.

Learn it.

Know it.

Live it.
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