Amel 64 , will it sail in light winds ?

[Braavos]

Thanks for the comment. How did you go about locating your professional mate ? was it through the manufacturer ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Braavos

Thanks for the comment. How did you go about locating your professional mate ? was it through the manufacturer ?

Crew exchange on YBW. You will want a professional CAPTAIN.

[Braavos]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Statements like this, coupled with 'gotta be new' and "gotta be 60-70 feet long" coming from someone who does not even know how to sail leave me shaking my head. We get threads like this every year or so, started by folks who seem to have large budgets and zero experience. I can't remember any of them coming back and telling us what they have actually purchased and sailed away in.

Wonder how this one will play out? Braavo, please keep us informed as you go through the purchase procedure... it will be informative.

Jim

Well. Jim ..
I'm being honest I had to think about showing my ignorance, in this , before I wrote my first post.. I know sail boats don't sail well in light winds, but I thought I would just put out the question , because I was looking at the amels , and. I thought I might see what kind of response I got..,
I actually have learned several things from this thread...
And to be embarrassingly honest, I didn't want to walk into a boat show , or a boat dealer , and be talked into an Impulse Buy. , and then find out it was something I didn't want ..
I have friends that are motorboaters ,Fisherman, divers, but I don't know anyone that is knowledgeable on sailboats.
Maybe I look foolish , but I have learned several things from this thread , and someday , I will be happy at sea .
And I do thank those that have replied , and for the information they've given me...
I plan on soon starting , to request information on three boats that I've selected. And I'm sure once I do so , I'll be hounded. and hounded, by sales staff from these three different manufacturers. I'll let you know how it goes...

I don't base my business decisions , or Financial matters , solely on the opinions of others, but I've learned to seek Sound Advice..

[Pizzazz]

Braavos,

If you are genuine, my suggestion would be to reach out to your buddies who have sailboats or make some friends at a local marina/yacht club and start accumulating knowledge. Most people on this forum are more interested in cruising, fixing up their boats and DIY than having a crewed yacht as a vacation home (what you seem to be describing).

My take is that you probably do not need such a large boat (anything above 50-55 will be sufficient, 64 is excessive), you definitely do not need a passage maker (Amel/HR) but something like a Beneteau 55 would be ideal for you. There are many points to consider but the few people I know in your situation all ended up with Beneteau's. You need a consultant, not a salesman.

If you are not genuine, why bother us? We are having a great time here.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Braavos,

If you are genuine, my suggestion would be to reach out to your buddies who have sailboats or make some friends at a local marina/yacht club and start accumulating knowledge. Most people on this forum are more interested in cruising, fixing up their boats and DIY than having a crewed yacht as a vacation home (what you seem to be describing).

My take is that you probably do not need such a large boat (anything above 50-55 will be sufficient, 64 is excessive), you definitely do not need a passage maker (Amel/HR) but something like a Beneteau 55 would be ideal for you. There are many points to consider but the few people I know in your situation all ended up with Beneteau's. You need a consultant, not a salesman.

If you are not genuine, why bother us? We are having a great time here.

64 feet with a professional crew is a very nice size in my opinion. Smaller than that with pro crew is a bit cramped ; yet 64' will still fit into many recreational marinas and isn't that expensive to keep up. A very nice balance in my opinion, and my own next boat will be this size.

A close friend of mine had a 90' Swan I spent time on, and that wasn't "excessive" either. But the cost of upkeep goes up quite a lot compared to 64', the draft (13') is much more of a problem, and few recreational marinas can take you. Another friend of mine has a 200' motor yacht and that, of course, is a different universe cost-wise.

[Hobie_ind]

John Neal from Mahina Expeditions does has some consultation services that you may want to check out. You're at the large end of the spectrum that he normally recommends, but one of the things he also does is help prospective owners wade through the 'options' list when spec'ing out their boat. I know he's also got good contacts with professional skippers and crew all over.

Mahina Expeditions - Offshore Cruising Instruction and Boat Consultation

I'd also wonder if sailing with them on one of their training legs would help you confirm if cruising is really for you. Even if you're planning on professional crew, it would be helpful. I did a leg from Australia to NZ with them in 2011, and one of the crew that was absolutely convinced he would love cruising decided the lifestyle was just too slow paced for him. He realized he couldn't always be where he wanted to be when he wanted to be there and that didn't work for him. He didn't realize that until he got a bit of time on the water. You may find it's exactly what you thought it would be, but you'll never know until you get on the water.

Good luck.

Regards,
Mark

[Braavos]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

John Neal from Mahina Expeditions does has some consultation services that you may want to check out. You're at the large end of the spectrum that he normally recommends, but one of the things he also does is help prospective owners wade through the 'options' list when spec'ing out their boat. I know he's also got good contacts with professional skippers and crew all over.

Mahina Expeditions - Offshore Cruising Instruction and Boat Consultation

I'd also wonder if sailing with them on one of their training legs would help you confirm if cruising is really for you. Even if you're planning on professional crew, it would be helpful. I did a leg from Australia to NZ with them in 2011, and one of the crew that was absolutely convinced he would love cruising decided the lifestyle was just too slow paced for him. He realized he couldn't always be where he wanted to be when he wanted to be there and that didn't work for him. He didn't realize that until he got a bit of time on the water. You may find it's exactly what you thought it would be, but you'll never know until you get on the water.

Good luck.

Regards,
Mark

Thank you, I Googled them and they came up thank you for replying ..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But Paolo, the HR 64 is LESS beamy than any other production HR (as was explained to me by the factory -- we don't actually have the numbers), not more beamy. It's very narrow, actually -- only 17 feet, more than a foot less beamy than the Amel, which has a foot less waterline.

That is a moot point, I mean the HR 64 to be the less beamy boat on HR. That is simply because when the length increases the length to beam ratio diminishes and the HR64 is the biggest of all HR.

To understand if it is narrow or beamy for a given length you have to compare it with other cruisers with the same length.

The Halberg Rassy 64 has 5.17m beam, a Discovery 55 (a smaller boat) has 4.78m beam, a Comet 73 (a bigger boat) has 5.05, the Vismara 67, a bigger boat, has 5.13, the Advanced 66, a bigger boat, has 5.4m the Baltic 67, a bigger boat, has 5.45m, the Mylius 65 (a slightly bigger boat) has 5,25m, the Bavaria C65 has 5.4m, a Amel 64 has 5.6m, an Hanse 675 has 5.90m, the Jeanneau 64 has 5.4m, the Solaris 68 (a bigger boat) has 5.5m, an Oyster 675 (a bigger boat) has 5.65m and the mutch bigger Beowulf 80 has 5.0m beam.

So I would say that even if the HR64 is not a beamy boat it is far from being a narrow boat or a boat out of the average regarding modern cruisers of that size.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the stiffness of both boats based on the simple quantity of ballast. The Amel has a much lower ketch rig, and is wider, so will be much stiffer with less ballast. It's also a couple tonnes lighter.

Iam not jumping at conclusions I know what I am saying. Tt is not only the B/D but the draft, the type of keel, the type of hull and beam and yes, the HR 64 is a stiffer boat and the stifness, as well as the final stability. In what regards the GZ curve the Amel 64 one will be very similar to the one of the Bavaria C65.

The Amel hull being just a bit wider wider will increase hull form stability but does not provide it with any gain in what regards safety stability or AVS and will give it a bigger inverted stability.

Regarding weight it is not that different and since the type of keels and draft are similar what counts to safety stability and AVS is the B/D that is hugely different, having the Amel 25% and the HR 35%.

The Amel will have more overall stability than the Bavaria, due to be heavier, but in what regards safety stability and AVS the Amel, with just a bit more beam, a slightly smaller B/D and less draft than the Bavaria will have similar values, if not worse.

In what regards AVS and safety stability the Amel 64 will be among the mass production cruisers and far away of the HR 64 and most of the boats I refereed above (with exception of mass production cruisers).

That does not mean that the Amel 64 is a bad boat as it does not mean that the Bavaria C65 is a bad boat, quite the contrary but it is usefull to understand the diferences between the boats in what regards what you cannot see on a boat show or sailing the boat without being at least in medium to stronger winds.
[/QUOTE]

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Braavos

Well. Jim ..
I'm being honest I had to think about showing my ignorance, in this , before I wrote my first post.. I know sail boats don't sail well in light winds, but I thought I would just put out the question , because I was looking at the amels , and. I thought I might see what kind of response I got..,
I actually have learned several things from this thread...
And to be embarrassingly honest, I didn't want to walk into a boat show , or a boat dealer , and be talked into an Impulse Buy. , and then find out it was something I didn't want ..
I have friends that are motorboaters ,Fisherman, divers, but I don't know anyone that is knowledgeable on sailboats.
Maybe I look foolish , but I have learned several things from this thread , and someday , I will be happy at sea .
And I do thank those that have replied , and for the information they've given me...
I plan on soon starting , to request information on three boats that I've selected. And I'm sure once I do so , I'll be hounded. and hounded, by sales staff from these three different manufacturers. I'll let you know how it goes...

I don't base my business decisions , or Financial matters , solely on the opinions of others, but I've learned to seek Sound Advice..

G'Day Braavos,

You know, the above post has helped me understand your position a bit. Thanks for your honesty and openness.

There are not very many folks here on cf that operate in the size and cost environment that you are proposing, and fewer yet that would be interested in a pro crew or captain aboard. Dockhead is one that does have experience in such endeavors, and there are likely a few others... but most of us just don't know much about the subject... me for sure! This lack of knowledge will not stem the flow of opinions and advice, as you will have noticed, and some selective consideration will be needed!

I'll follow along in your thread with some interest even though your interests and mine are widely divergent, and hope that some "sound advice" comes along to aid in your "informed decision"!!

Good luck and in time, good sailing.

Jim

[Pizzazz]

Braavos,

You have been very open about your interest in sailing, so it may be time for us to share some of our experiences to help you make up your mind. My view is that once you get above 55 ft, it becomes very difficult to single hand. It is not only a question of automation - the winch sizes are enormous, the line thickness/length is significant, if anything goes slightly wrong or jams you are stuck. You can do it but you are taking operational risk.

Next, you cannot count on your non-sailing friends to help as in my experience guests quickly lose interest and head directly for the drinks, even if they were super keen at first or the first few months.

Next, most boats need fairly large sails to sail in light winds and this becomes a liability, especially if short handed or offshore during squalls. Most racing crews (9-12 young and able bodies, typically in three watches) would change sails every couple of hours while cruisers just motor in light winds (charge the batteries, get to the destination faster). So, you have to decide what type of sailor you plan to become and trust me, it is either a dedicated crew or motoring. There is little in-between but I am sure others will share their experiences as well.

At this point we have to mention cats too. A 50 ft cat, especially a high performance model from Catana, for example, will do pretty much everything better than a HR64 will do and HR is the gold standard for monohulls, IMHO. She will be faster, more comfortable, more space, less sail area, less draft - no, she does not look like a boat but she will grow on you.

By the way, if you choose motoring in light winds and after you experience a few heavy weather storms at sea, you may decide that sailing is best done in the 10-20 knot wind range only. It is very tempting to just get a power boat with a sailing dinghy vs. a large sailboat with a tender... think about how many people who are willing to spend $1 million on a boat go for power vs. sail - there is a reason for that.

Lots of options, good luck.

SV Pizzazz

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Braavos,

You have been very open about your interest in sailing, so it may be time for us to share some of our experiences to help you make up your mind. My view is that once you get above 55 ft, it becomes very difficult to single hand. It is not only a question of automation - the winch sizes are enormous, the line thickness/length is significant, if anything goes slightly wrong or jams you are stuck. You can do it but you are taking operational risk.
...

No, in fact today 60ft boats can be easily sailed by a couple or even alone by an experienced sailor provided the boat is always maintained in tip top condition. The preventive maintenance of all systems that allow for this is not cheap, as the boat itself is not cheap but it is just a question of having the money or not.

If the OP sails with an experienced Captain for a couple of years to learn and if it is on a reasonable fit shape I am sure he will be able to sail the boat alone. On this boats the more dificult is to berth the boat but even that is today much more easy with bowtrusters at the bow and the stern, I mean the modern systems developed by the big brands.

On this sail test on the HR64 the sail tester, that is a lady with some age, even if a good sailor, refers how easy is to sail the boat alone and it is not the HR, all of them are, if with the right extras, even the so called mass production big yachts, Bavaria, jeanneau , Hanse and company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRm-5--BRAg

[Braavos]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Braavos,

You know, the above post has helped me understand your position a bit. Thanks for your honesty and openness.

There are not very many folks here on cf that operate in the size and cost environment that you are proposing, and fewer yet that would be interested in a pro crew or captain aboard. Dockhead is one that does have experience in such endeavors, and there are likely a few others... but most of us just don't know much about the subject... me for sure! This lack of knowledge will not stem the flow of opinions and advice, as you will have noticed, and some selective consideration will be needed!

I'll follow along in your thread with some interest even though your interests and mine are widely divergent, and hope that some "sound advice" comes along to aid in your "informed decision"!!

Good luck and in time, good sailing.

Jim

Hey Jim.
I wanted to get with you one last time the thread is pretty much run its course , and I did learn some very good tips .. other than two people on the thread everyone was really helpful and nice and I appreciated it...
And. In the end , I didn't really look at the prices on the boats , I wanted to look at just what I thought I would feel comfortable with. , and yet be able to comfortably cruise on .
Nail that down, see what's out there, .
See , what I personally liked , and then look at the prices , I think everyone does that , I was just more open , and honest about it on a forum, and caught a little bit of flack for it ..
I never really got feedback on the boat that ended up being my final decision ....
But I wanted to let you know that I've contracted with a broker, and told him that my interest is expressly a. , Discovery 58 ..
It comes standard with a lot of the options that I want. , I won't have to finish it out very much past what I can order it set up from the factory ..
Although a lot of people don't like the raised salon, I personally do prefer it. ,, so that's the path of travel I'm going down.....
. You made the statement that following threats like this before. , you had never known how they ended up. , so I wanted to get back with you , one last time. ... I think I just fell in love with a discovery 58 . And I'm not going to let the broker sidetrack me .. we're discussing setting up an appointment to see the boat with A us dealer. , and of course following up with a test sail .
Fair Winds , Following Seas

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Braavos

Hey Jim.
...
But I wanted to let you know that I've contracted with a broker, and told him that my interest is expressly a. , Discovery 58 ..
It comes standard with a lot of the options that I want. , I won't have to finish it out very much past what I can order it set up from the factory ..
Although a lot of people don't like the raised salon, I personally do prefer it. ,, so that's the path of travel I'm going down.....
....

That's funny you started this thread about the concern to sail on light winds and ended up choosing the boat that has a poorer light with performance along all the ones that were discussed

Nothing wrong with the Discovery 58, it is well built, has a good performance on the trade winds but would be the wrong boat to chose if you are going to sail on the med most of the time.

It has an hull with an outdated design. The HR64, the Amel 64 have a better and more contemporary hull design, one that performs better in most conditions. It has nothing to do with being a deck saloon or not.

Discovery 58

Oyster 675

HR 64

Amel 64

[Braavos]

Would you mind answering a question for me please ? someone in another post touched on it. ?
but I can't find that post again .

Someone said something about recreational marinas. , and boats of a certain size couldn't go into certain marinas , or boats of a certain size was harder to find Marina that they could go in to , could you give me some knowledge on this subject please .

I read your post carefully I'm still listening to everyone's advice ...I really like the discovery 58 , but as I said in my original post I'm a total new newbie to sailboats. , so putting importance based on hull design , was eye-opening a brand new door to me, one thing this thread is educated me on,

I talked to a Yacht broker. , I was really focus on the Discovery 58 for several reasons . However the process is not so far along now I wouldn't be able to change paths . the amel 50 is hmm 25% more costly , slightly smaller . but believe me I'm listening to tour input.

Could you please answer my questions about the recreational marinas ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Braavos

Would you mind answering a question for me please ? someone in another post touched on it. ?
but I can't find that post again .

Someone said something about recreational marinas. , and boats of a certain size couldn't go into certain marinas , or boats of a certain size was harder to find Marina that they could go in to , could you give me some knowledge on this subject please .

I read your post carefully I'm still listening to everyone's advice ...I really like the discovery 58 , but as I said in my original post I'm a total new newbie to sailboats. , so putting importance based on hull design , was eye-opening a brand new door to me, one thing this thread is educated me on,

I talked to a Yacht broker. , I was really focus on the Discovery 58 for several reasons . However the process is not so far along now I wouldn't be able to change paths . the amel 50 is hmm 25% more costly , slightly smaller . but believe me I'm listening to tour input.

Could you please answer my questions about the recreational marinas ?

There are different size (and draft!) standards in different parts of the world. In some places (Scandinavia for example), a boat bigger than 40 feet is considered large and a boat bigger than 50 feet, like mine, cannot be accommodated in the majority of marinas. A boat over 60 feet is treated like a commercial vessel in many ports in Scandinavia.

In the Med, where there are a lot of superyachts, it's not like that, but cost of berthing doesn't go up linearly with length but is charged by area considering beam, or may even be on progressive rates. The cost of berthing in the Med can be so great as to actually be a concern even for someone buying a $3 million boat, but then again, the bigger the boat, the more autonomous it usually is, and the more stable it is at anchor, and the better tender it carries, so bigger boats often spend more time at anchor.

My advice to you is don't try to choose the boat yourself. Find and hire your professional captain that you trust and choose it together with him. Without experience cruising (I'm not even talking about experience sailing), you really won't know what you want or need, and buying and selling yachts is nothing like buying and selling cars or houses -- you can't just trade it in on something different, if it turns out with more experience that you don't like what you bought. It can take years to sell a yacht and you might lose tons of money especially on a new one.

That being said, a 50 footer is too small for a pro crew and 58 feet is pushing it. Something in the mid 60's is a good size to be run by a professional crew. Discovery is a beautiful boat but you don't know enough yet to understand its pluses and minuses compared to the other boats you're looking at.

Don't be discouraged -- you are unlikely to regret this if only you have time to spend on the boat, and money enough to run her properly. I suggest you hire a potential captain first on consulting contract for a few months to work up a business plan with complete plan for all the acquisition, equipping and running costs. Note carefully that the price of a new boat, even if it's quoted as a "sail away price", is far from the total cost you will end up with after you have equipped and supplied the boat.

The biggest mistake people with money but no experience make in buying a yacht is overestimating how much time they have to spend on board. If you're not going to be spending at least several months a year on board, then you are better off chartering ("If it flies, floats, or f****s, rent it"). The other biggest mistake is underestimating the costs. A yacht is nothing at all like an expensive car -- buy it, put it in the garage, drive it, take it in for service a couple of times a year. Even a small sailboat requires almost daily maintenance, and a 60'+ yacht needs more or less full time attention -- at least one full time person dedicated to keeping her clean, maintained, and repaired. A 60+ foot yacht is more complex than a small plane, and more expensive to run. It's not for nothing that we say that the definition of cruising is "boat repair in exotic places".