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Old 04-12-2013, 04:20   #241
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strait Shooter View Post
It's currently 23F outside here in the Pacific North West. Diesel heaters are popular here as well. It took a little practice getting it lit and learning the relationship between the air and fuel adjustments.

Between the diesel and the armaflex insulation though, I'm sitting here in a flannel shirt, and wool socks contemplating a hot cup of coffee and an open hatch in the pilot house. Life is indeed good.

I agree with a wireless for the windlass. Tis a marvelous thing.

Simple is, as simple does.
We dont use those, we use inline diesel air heaters. The unit sits in the lazzeret or side bunk with exhaust to outside, burns diesel to heat air which is then fan forced through ducting into every cabin with a open/close direction outlet. open it when you want the room warm, face it where you want the most hot air, close it when not in use and the warm air goes to the places you want warmed, same thing as my gas burner, works on a thermostat or just off/on.

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Old 04-12-2013, 05:04   #242
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Of course the newer models are much more quieter, smaller and more efficient with diesel and 12volt.
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Old 04-12-2013, 14:41   #243
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

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Originally Posted by troppo1 View Post
We dont use those, we use inline diesel air heaters. The unit sits in the lazzeret or side bunk with exhaust to outside, burns diesel to heat air which is then fan forced through ducting into every cabin with a open/close direction outlet. open it when you want the room warm, face it where you want the most hot air, close it when not in use and the warm air goes to the places you want warmed, same thing as my gas burner, works on a thermostat or just off/on.

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I chose the Dickinson stove/heater because of the ability to not use electric power. My stove can be rebuilt by me, in the field (as it were) and is quite simple. I do indeed like the hydronic diesel furnaces. I just don't like the idea of being stuck somewhere in the cold.
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Old 04-12-2013, 14:59   #244
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

I wouldnt list any of those heating devices part of the "simple" boat!
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Old 04-12-2013, 15:11   #245
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Heater on a boat is an oxymoron to me, my idea is if it starts to get cold, move. I equate cold to pain, and I have an allergy to pain
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Old 04-12-2013, 15:20   #246
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pirate Re: A "Simple" Boat

I'd definitely move.. into the sleeping bag..
An essential in a simple boat is the galley being in arms reach of your bunk..
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Old 04-12-2013, 15:48   #247
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Coops wrote
"Too different. Too ugly."
I've always been attracted to "different."
But "ugly"?
I'm hurt
But then, I prefer VWs to Porsches.


Quote:
"The good news is that S/H junk rigged boats are cheaper because of it."
Very true.
Good for the buyer, anyway.
A weather eye on the eventual sale of the boat
no doubt inhibits a fair number of cruisers
from building themselves a junk-rigged vessel.


Quote:
charliehows wrote
"the only boats ive seen with it looked a little...fragile... for the south seas"
Yes, the lack of stays and shrouds
can be disconcerting at first.
Not only is the rig robust, however,
it is readily repaired,
requires no onboard "sail inventory",
works reasonably well with even very low-grade materials,
places far less stress on the hull and deck,
and doesn't depend on the integrity
of each of a large number of components
to remain functional.
It protects its fragile human operators, too,
as reefing can literally be accomplished from below decks
and there is no jib to reef, replace, or hand
during rough weather.
Not to mention the built-in mast ladder
(so long as the halyard hasn't escaped!).


Quote:
"think about how much thought and experience has gone into developing the fundamentals of this boat"
The evolution of the "fully-battened Chinese square sail"
definitely has more history behind it.
Some of the most experienced sailors in the world
have admired the rig.
Joshua Slocum was one of the top Clipper captains
during the hay day of sail,
and when he built the Liberdade from scratch
to carry his family safely from Brazil to New York
he chose the junk rig.
He wrote,
""Her rig was the Chinese sampan style,
which is, I consider,
the most convenient boat rig in the whole world."


Quote:
Robert sailor wrote,
"Junk Rigs...cool rigs actually but never made it to the mainstream."
In the West, that's true.
World wide I'm pretty sure there are
more junk-rigged boats than Marconi-rigged,
and that's certainly the case historically.
For reasons that I fail to grok,
Western manufacturers and the buying public
love to mimic the trends in racing machines
whether it makes sense or not.
They screw traction wings onto the trunks of cars
that will never see 75 mph
and mould faux wind-tunnel aerodynamic shapes
onto 4-wheel-drive work trucks
with eight cylinders and 4-barrel carbs.
And public opinion, alas,
is largely shaped by advertising.

It's true that junk rigs are a bit slower upwind
and cannot point as high as properly-tuned Marconi rigs
with perfectly-cut sails,
but the same might be said
of the average Marconi-rigged cruising vessel.

My experiences may not be representative,
but I've talked with a fair number of radio-tower sailors
who were hugely surprised and positively impressed
by their first hands-on Junk rig experience,
and I don't recall a single one with the opposite response.

Not that I care whether anyone else uses Junks;
I'd just like to see more people
have a chance to try them out for themselves.
The cost and safety factors alone
make the Chinese rig worth considering.

- Shas
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Old 04-12-2013, 16:42   #248
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Heater on a boat is an oxymoron to me, my idea is if it starts to get cold, move. I equate cold to pain, and I have an allergy to pain
Yeah, I tend to think sometimes "moving" can be the way to a simpler boat. I don't need a diesel heater, I just need to move further south

-Chris
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Old 04-12-2013, 16:53   #249
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I wouldnt list any of those heating devices part of the "simple" boat!
It was 25F here this morning.
How about my wood burner? Is that simple enough
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Old 04-12-2013, 19:02   #250
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post




It's true that junk rigs are a bit slower upwind
and cannot point as high as properly-tuned Marconi rigs
with perfectly-cut sails,
but the same might be said
of the average Marconi-rigged cruising vessel.




Not that I care whether anyone else uses Junks;
I'd just like to see more people
have a chance to try them out for themselves.
The cost and safety factors alone
make the Chinese rig worth considering.

- Shas
Has anyone done any real-life testing of the rigs on the same hull to see what the actual difference is?

I am a cat guy and cats don't (let's not start an argument here now as there are known "type" differences) go to windward as well as monos.

What would happen with a cat with junk rig? Equal to the average square rigged vessel?

I'll try one. Bring it by the Tampa Bay area.
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Old 04-12-2013, 20:33   #251
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Has anyone done any real-life testing of the rigs on the same hull to see what the actual difference is?
You bet.
Lots of boats have been re-rigged to junk.
Blondie Hasler, for instance, converted his Folkboat JESTER
and tested it and wrote about it in a scientific manner.
His re-rigged boat placed very well against larger boats
in a number of races, too, such as the Ostar Transatlantic.
JESTER then was owned by Mike Richey,
who also raced her across the Atlantic
who wrote that she was "a work of genius"
and seemed to be "effortless to sail".
Mike also remarked that the rig made very little leeway.

Annie Hill's BADGER (if I am remembering this correctly)
had non-junk sisterships,
though I don't recall whether she wrote of any comparisons.

As I recall, the "slow to windward"
and "won't point well" criticisms
have been shown to be relatively small increments.
The same is likely true of being "faster downwind".

I've never sailed a cat,
but I suspect that converting it to junk rig
wouldn't produce any drastic changes in performance.
The masts are both free-standing (usually)
and in both cases the masts are positioned
farther forward than a Marconi rig
and carry a larger-than-Marconi mainsail.

Those are my extrapolations, anyway.
I'm no expert.
I just know that I like the boring gybes,
the instant, effortless reefing,
and the reservation of the fore-deck
as a place to sunbathe in good weather.

- Shas
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Old 05-12-2013, 00:17   #252
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Now there are very few young cruisers out there.
For someone my age, it's tough to know when to stop building the kitty and working the career. And do you have the skills needed to resume the money making machine as needed once you truly cast the lines off? In tech fields it can be especially tough because things move fast and competencies can quickly become obsolete. And if there are fewer guarantees in today's job markets then it would seem you have to be increasingly passionate or hard-headed with regard to cruising to make a go at it these days.

I also think more my age assume the floating condo approach is necessary to doing it "right" than in the past. Seems we're a bit more risk-averse in general, and used to more experiences being filtered through a screen

"Freedom is having the time to live" though. I have to remind myself of that more often than I'd like these days

That said, I'll see you on the water!
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Old 05-12-2013, 00:27   #253
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Certainly valid questions, very personal decisions. On the upside you have a wonderful go anywhere boat in the Vancouver 27
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Old 05-12-2013, 00:44   #254
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Has anyone done any real-life testing of the rigs on the same hull to see what the actual difference is?

I am a cat guy and cats don't (let's not start an argument here now as there are known "type" differences) go to windward as well as monos.

What would happen with a cat with junk rig? Equal to the average square rigged vessel?

I'll try one. Bring it by the Tampa Bay area.
Check out the presentations on this thread. Aft mast & simple sail.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:30   #255
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

She's such a great boat

On the positive side, I think today's jobs have the potential to open up a lot of possibilities. I got into IT a few years back largely because I was cruising on someone else's boat and was looking for a way I could keep the lifestyle and work from anywhere.

#1 lesson learned since then, however, is that cruising and a full time job rarely go well together. It was a lot more fun penniless and actually going places Gotta pay the dues tho, or at least some of them

End of the day, with housing prices on the rise again, plenty of good old cheap boats out there, and the means to make a living on or near the water, I'm optimistic more of us youngens will figure out what we've been missing.
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