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Old 01-12-2013, 12:26   #181
smj
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I guess there's nothing wrong with purposely sailing without an engine if that's what you want to do. But if that's so then don't let that decision affect or inconvenience anyone else.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:37   #182
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Defending friends from self-righteous malice
is not "worshipping them."
If someone advocates motorcycle travel,
does that mean it's hypocrisy for him to ever drive a car?
Are *you* a hypocrite for using your sails
when you have a motor on your boat?
What adolescent foolishness.

As I said,
the Pardeys have nothing to prove from their detractors.
Nothing whatsoever.

Nimblemotors,
your name tells us that you appreciate motors.
Good on ya!
May they bring you joy and serve you well.
But to stand in judgement
of competent, proven sailors with a different perspective
is nothing more than arrogance.
Why can't we all pursue pleasure on the water in our own way
without demanding that everyone share our own philosophy?
Embracing the most modern technology
is not a matter of moral superiority,
nor even of wisdom.

The advent of the internal combustion engine
was *not* the end of shipwrecks.
Engineless sailing can be pleasurable and safe,
as generations of sailors have demonstrated.
It merely requires superior seamanship.

- Shas
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:45   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post
Defending friends from self-righteous malice
is not "worshipping them."
If someone advocates motorcycle travel,
does that mean it's hypocrisy for him to ever drive a car?
Are *you* a hypocrite for using your sails
when you have a motor on your boat?
What adolescent foolishness.

As I said,
the Pardeys have nothing to prove from their detractors.
Nothing whatsoever.

Nimblemotors,
your name tells us that you appreciate motors.
Good on ya!
May they bring you joy and serve you well.
But to stand in judgement
of competent, proven sailors with a different perspective
is nothing more than arrogance.
Why can't we all pursue pleasure on the water in our own way
without demanding that everyone share our own philosophy?
Embracing the most modern technology
is not a matter of moral superiority,
nor even of wisdom.

The advent of the internal combustion engine
was *not* the end of shipwrecks.
Engineless sailing can be pleasurable and safe,
as generations of sailors have demonstrated.
It merely requires superior seamanship.

- Shas
Seems your having a hard time grasping the point.
Superior seamanship would include sailing into anchorages rather than bothering fellow cruisers, who had the forethought to have a working engine, for a tow.
Calling people arrogant and adolescently foolish because they don't agree with you or your hero's is.......arrogant?
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:46   #184
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post
It merely requires superior seamanship.

- Shas
Superior self-righteousness INDEED
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:59   #185
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pirate Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Seems your having a hard time grasping the point.
Superior seamanship would include sailing into anchorages rather than bothering fellow cruisers, who had the forethought to have a working engine, for a tow.
Calling people arrogant and adolescently foolish because they don't agree with you or your hero's is.......arrogant?
Kinda hard to sail into an anchorage if there's no wind...
Kinda like motoring in with no diesel...
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Old 01-12-2013, 13:02   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

Kinda hard to sail into an anchorage if there's no wind...
Kinda like motoring in with no diesel...
And there you have it. You make your choices and you pay the price:-)
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Old 01-12-2013, 13:02   #187
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post
Defending friends from self-righteous malice
is not "worshipping them."
If someone advocates motorcycle travel,
does that mean it's hypocrisy for him to ever drive a car?
Are *you* a hypocrite for using your sails
when you have a motor on your boat?
What adolescent foolishness.

As I said,
the Pardeys have nothing to prove from their detractors.
Nothing whatsoever.

Nimblemotors,
your name tells us that you appreciate motors.
Good on ya!
May they bring you joy and serve you well.
But to stand in judgement
of competent, proven sailors with a different perspective
is nothing more than arrogance.
Why can't we all pursue pleasure on the water in our own way
without demanding that everyone share our own philosophy?
Embracing the most modern technology
is not a matter of moral superiority,
nor even of wisdom.

The advent of the internal combustion engine
was *not* the end of shipwrecks.
Engineless sailing can be pleasurable and safe,
as generations of sailors have demonstrated.
It merely requires superior seamanship.

- Shas
I'm sorry if your offended but I don't see why you need to have such an agenda because some of us express an opinion. By the way...you used the word worshiping...no one else. Also, who is demanding anything? We're just expressing opinions. You don't seem to grasp that concept here on CF. Please try to be a little more flexible...you'll be a happier person.
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Old 01-12-2013, 13:02   #188
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
don't let that decision affect or inconvenience anyone else.
This is one of those statements
that sound wise at first hearing
but which fail to support a closer look.

Do you maintain that same strict criterion
for those who carry EPIRBs?
Those things are deliberately *designed*
to affect and inconvenience others!
How about noisy motors and generators
in otherwise peaceful anchorages?
I could list examples for pages.

Most of our activities affect others.
But sails are generally less of an inconvenience
than their alternatives.

Let's try to avoid the name-calling and insults
and recognise that none of us is the Judge
to dictate what is allowed or approved or legitimate.
If I could wave a magic wand
and eliminate all motors and generators on boats,
I would wave it in a heartbeat.
But I don't condemn power boaters,
I don't call them "stink pots",
I don't call sailors "hypocrites" for using their motors.
When their racket and wash affect and inconvenience me
I roll my eyes and go about my business.
Only when the racket is malicious
or the (illegal) wakes deliberate
do I speak up.
Or when I see good people being publicly denigrated.

- Shas
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Old 01-12-2013, 13:07   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post

This is one of those statements
that sound wise at first hearing
but which fail to support a closer look.

Do you maintain that same strict criterion
for those who carry EPIRBs?
Those things are deliberately *designed*
to affect and inconvenience others!
How about noisy motors and generators
in otherwise peaceful anchorages?
I could list examples for pages.

Most of our activities affect others.
But sails are generally less of an inconvenience
than their alternatives.

Let's try to avoid the name-calling and insults
and recognise that none of us is the Judge
to dictate what is allowed or approved or legitimate.
If I could wave a magic wand
and eliminate all motors and generators on boats,
I would wave it in a heartbeat.
But I don't condemn power boaters,
I don't call them "stink pots",
I don't call sailors "hypocrites" for using their motors.
When their racket and wash affect and inconvenience me
I roll my eyes and go about my business.
Only when the racket is malicious
or the (illegal) wakes deliberate
do I speak up.
Or when I see good people being publicly denigrated.

- Shas
Seems this conversation is probably worthless as even the Pardeys finally realized that an engine is a necessity in the cruising world today. I'm sure that 8hp outboard had made life easier on them as well as other cruisers who would have felt it necessary to answer their calls and tow them in.
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Old 01-12-2013, 14:21   #190
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Calling people arrogant and adolescently foolish because they don't agree with you or your hero's is.......arrogant?
For disagreeing?
Never.
For public insults and denigration?
You bet.

No doubt you also denigrate those who use an EPIRB
to call for help from fellow cruisers
who had the forethought to have a larger boat
or more powerful engine
or better functioning engine or...?
To fail to do so would surely be hypocritical.

We could go around and around with the finger-pointing.
My object in responding initially
was to suggest that we not point fingers
rather than pointing them more and more aggressively.

To be towed a dozen miles in 40,000 miles of sailing
is not the act of a hypocrite.
No more is the use of a motor on a sailboat.
And you are not obliged to respond
to the call of an engineless boat
faced with a harbour that prohibits sailing,
so their choices don't impact you at all.

Let's allow each other to use the sea as we choose,
so long as we are not harming others.

- Shas
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Old 01-12-2013, 14:30   #191
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I'm sorry if your offended but I don't see why you need to have such an agenda because some of us express an opinion.
Your opinion is fine.
Publicly calling others "hypocrites" is beyond opinion-
it is slander.

Quote:
By the way...you used the word worshiping...no one else.
Please read the comments before commenting on them.
Smj wrote,
"I appreciate what the Pardeys have done but I don't place them upon a pedestal or worship them as you do."


Quote:
Please try to be a little more flexible...you'll be a happier person.
I am both flexible and happy.
I simply step forward when I see my friends
being publicly accused of hypocrisy,
especially when they are not here to defend themselves.
I will continue to do so.
If you try to speak a bit more respectfully
we will perhaps *all* be happier.

- Shas
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Old 01-12-2013, 15:46   #192
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

The tendency we all have to try and prove that our choices are the best choices often comes though in these discussions. If someone makes a different choice, from going without a fridge to cruising without an engine, some people feel the need to either denigrate or idolize.

From my perspective, it just illustrates that when it comes to cruising, and indeed most of life, there really are precious few single right answers.
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Old 01-12-2013, 16:04   #193
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas Cho View Post
Your opinion is fine.
Publicly calling others "hypocrites" is beyond opinion-
it is slander.



Please read the comments before commenting on them.
Smj wrote,
"I appreciate what the Pardeys have done but I don't place them upon a pedestal or worship them as you do."




I am both flexible and happy.
I simply step forward when I see my friends
being publicly accused of hypocrisy,
especially when they are not here to defend themselves.
I will continue to do so.
If you try to speak a bit more respectfully
we will perhaps *all* be happier.

- Shas
Well...you seem to have an axe to grind, so go for it.
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Old 01-12-2013, 17:24   #194
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Re: A "Simple" Boat

Gentlemen, Please idle your engine, luff your sails or "cool your jets" as it was somestimes said on the playground. As the duel continues we're all losing appeal.
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Old 01-12-2013, 18:23   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
The tendency we all have to try and prove that our choices are the best choices often comes though in these discussions. If someone makes a different choice, from going without a fridge to cruising without an engine, some people feel the need to either denigrate or idolize. From my perspective, it just illustrates that when it comes to cruising, and indeed most of life, there really are precious few single right answers.
I agree. Make your choices and be responsible for what your choices bring. Don't rely on others to help you because you made the wrong choice.
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