A challenge, a mission, one last chance...

[belizesailor]

The chronometer thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=183158

[Jim Cate]

Bottle, I try to stay out of discussions like this because I don't like being accused of naysaying... but I am really concerned by your situation. There have been several good posts from experienced folks, and it seems like you are ignoring them... so I'll have a go. And yes, I am one of those "experienced sailors" you are seeking advice from.

1. Research into sailing is a good thing. It will not, however, be a substitute for personal experience. Not even close, no matter how many you-tubes you watch or how many books you read. Until you have been on a pitching foredeck, periodically submerged to the neck in icy sea water while you try to tame a loose sail you simply can not perceive how truly dangerous and unpleasant such activities are, nor can you evaluate those experienced author's words and experiences. And believe me, if you attempt the voyages that you suggest on the budget you have, such events will come along, if not the one described, then some other equally demanding event. **** happens at sea, even to the well prepared and well funded. For the inexperienced and underfunded, the results are bound to be worse.... destructive and perhaps fatal.

2. Considering the above, if you want to pursue your dream, the single thing you must do is get out sailing. Yep, you say it isn't convenient for you. Well, if that small inconvenience dissuades you, then you lack the drive that is required to accomplish your stated goals. No sailing in your area (which I doubt), then move to where there is sailing. No jobs in your field there? Get other work... you claim to be versed in lots of useful skills. Getting sailing time is more important than pursuing your watchmaking trade if you are to succeed in your plans. Without personal experience you can not evaluate the advice that you seek... you may have noticed that already yoou have received conflicting opinions here on CF. Who ya gonna believe?

3. Your stated budget is woefully slim for the proposed voyages. Folks have offered examples of low budget sailors as proof of concept. I believe that those that succeeded in high latitude voyages were very experienced when they set out, and thus were able to make sound decisions about all factors of the plan. You will not be in that position for some while, even if you start sailing with others now, and if you continue on your described path, perhaps never will be. In a nutshell, your budget makes an already difficult voyage essentially impossible.

So there you have it, naysaying from this sailor. Likely not what you want to hear, and likely to draw criticism from the "just go for it " crowd, but what my own years of voyaging and cruising lead me to believe.

Jim

[Abottleofrum]

Originally Posted by Stumble

There is a reason that hundred year old current and wind charts are still being sold. They can tell you month by month where the prevailing winds will be, and where you can comfortably sail next from where you are.

In the Pacific the fastest way from Mexico to San Francisco is probably not going north up the coast, but going west to Hawaii, then north to Alaska, then south. Because the wind and currents are all I need your favor. You could sail North along the coast, but it will be a much more violent trip, and likely slower.

The same thing with going the wrong way around. You can do it... but you have to be just shy of crazy to want to. The other way is faster, easier, and safer.

Heh, as I've discovered. As I made mention in an earlier post, I sorely misunderstood and underestimated the nature of the West-To-East journey. This was certainly an error on my part, but one that would have gone unnoticed too late without the advice of an experienced sailor. For that, I thank you deeply.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Stumble

There is a reason that hundred year old current and wind charts are still being sold. They can tell you month by month where the prevailing winds will be, and where you can comfortably sail next from where you are.

In the Pacific the fastest way from Mexico to San Francisco is probably not going north up the coast, but going west to Hawaii, then north to Alaska, then south. Because the wind and currents are all I need your favor. You could sail North along the coast, but it will be a much more violent trip, and likely slower.

The same thing with going the wrong way around. You can do it... but you have to be just shy of crazy to want to. The other way is faster, easier, and safer.

They are not being sold, they are free! One of the great bargains are the pilot charts here.

Maritime Safety Information

[Abottleofrum]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Bottle, I try to stay out of discussions like this because I don't like being accused of naysaying... but I am really concerned by your situation. There have been several good posts from experienced folks, and it seems like you are ignoring them... so I'll have a go. And yes, I am one of those "experienced sailors" you are seeking advice from.

1. Research into sailing is a good thing. It will not, however, be a substitute for personal experience. Not even close, no matter how many you-tubes you watch or how many books you read. Until you have been on a pitching foredeck, periodically submerged to the neck in icy sea water while you try to tame a loose sail you simply can not perceive how truly dangerous and unpleasant such activities are, nor can you evaluate those experienced author's words and experiences. And believe me, if you attempt the voyages that you suggest on the budget you have, such events will come along, if not the one described, then some other equally demanding event. **** happens at sea, even to the well prepared and well funded. For the inexperienced and underfunded, the results are bound to be worse.... destructive and perhaps fatal.

2. Considering the above, if you want to pursue your dream, the single thing you must do is get out sailing. Yep, you say it isn't convenient for you. Well, if that small inconvenience dissuades you, then you lack the drive that is required to accomplish your stated goals. No sailing in your area (which I doubt), then move to where there is sailing. No jobs in your field there? Get other work... you claim to be versed in lots of useful skills. Getting sailing time is more important than pursuing your watchmaking trade if you are to succeed in your plans. Without personal experience you can not evaluate the advice that you seek... you may have noticed that already yoou have received conflicting opinions here on CF. Who ya gonna believe?

3. Your stated budget is woefully slim for the proposed voyages. Folks have offered examples of low budget sailors as proof of concept. I believe that those that succeeded in high latitude voyages were very experienced when they set out, and thus were able to make sound decisions about all factors of the plan. You will not be in that position for some while, even if you start sailing with others now, and if you continue on your described path, perhaps never will be. In a nutshell, your budget makes an already difficult voyage essentially impossible.

So there you have it, naysaying from this sailor. Likely not what you want to hear, and likely to draw criticism from the "just go for it " crowd, but what my own years of voyaging and cruising lead me to believe.

Jim

NAYSAYER! BURN THE NAYSAYER! *waves a pitchfork and torch*

No, no. I jest. Hey Jim, and thank you very much for responding! If I can ask, how far along into the thread have you gotten? Its been lengthy (more than I could have hoped for) and Ive gotten all sorts of advice and tips on my end. And yes, it is opinions like yours that I consider valuable. But in my own defense, allow me to address your points individually (MAN, I really wishe we could edit older posts. Theres so much I wish I could change with that first one).


1. Let's take this from watchmaking perspective, just so you can see it from mine. I was picked up by Rolex three years ago to be trained as one of their watchmakers.

On the very first day of class, they had us assemble a yatchmaster from scratch and- hahahaha, no, I'm lying through my teeth on that one. They had us cut, file, and drill a piece of wood to be a holder for our screws. That took us three days. And then, as the program went along, we slowly advanced. Made a german clock. Pocketwatch. Wristwatch. Automatic. Chronograph. Master Complications. And every step along the way, we ****ed up and got better and ****ed up and got better, and ****ed up, and got better.

You ever work on someone else's 50-90k watch, holding your breath because just the condensation of your breath could damage a spring worth more than six months salary? Not many people can. Slightly bragging, but the point to that is that someone who had no real prior training in this got to the point where they could work on some of the finest watches in the world (though I think Van Cleef and Arpell's are the prettiest). I have to view sailing as the same way; I know next to nothing about the practicality of it, so let me get the actual experience, and figure out the best way possible to do so.

So I never once disagreed with you on this point. But I think I did a pisspoor job of conveying my acknowledgement. I need to learn so much, and Im just looking for the opportunities to gain knowledge and better approach my plan on attack to something I want to do in life. Whether its 2, 4, or 6 years down the line.

2) Heh, you doubt the lack of sailing, but I swear its true. Powerboats and fishing boats galore, and I have my boating license with them. Maybe five sailboats in immediate marinas, and another ten for those 50 miles around. Its just not popular here. Those that are look like they've never left the marinas, and their owners are never around.

Its not that its an inconvenience Im not willing to take, I rightfully can't at this very moment. By contract, Im bound to my current job till the end of September, with as much money being saved for this venture, whatever it may be. That, and it would be unfair of me to leave the business Im with so rapidly, even if I wasn't contracted. But, by september's end, I'll be free to persue this endeavor.


3~ People return to the budget, and again, this is woefully my thought. Initially, I made the assumption, amongst other wrong ones, that the only good way to get any real sort of experience would be to acquire a boat and practice with it as much as possible. I don't need the Rolex of boats, but I do want/need an ETA. Something solid, within my budget, and still capable for a nip up to Nantucket, or down to Florida Keys. A boat that was sturdy enough for longer trips and open waters, that would give me confidence to then embark on the later journey.... though, with my funding situation, this would also likely be the same vessel to embark. Not knowing vessels as well as the rest of you, I figured I would ask. Mercedes are nice, but a Honda can get you across the country all the same.

At the end of the day, heck yeah I need a bigger budget for around the world. No question. But Ill have 20k in the bank, and if I wanted to start sailing now, whats the best boat? The rest will come and it comes.

Of course, finding new ways to do things cheaper, or finding alternative ways to fund ventures are always appreciated. I know it was selling plasma for me that paid for school books. Unorthodox, but it worked.



Its not that I ignore naysayers, its just that as of yet, they haven't given me reasons to drop this as a dream to accomplish. I appreciate all sorts of advice, and I eagerly look for it. But I would rather be told why I was wrong, then just told dismissively that I am. I'd rather hear how something could be done, or what I should do instead, then be told that what I want is impossible, even if it is. Because with that mentality, I can at least keep moving forward to an end goal.

And even if, as previous posters have said, that this venture is harder than a single thread on a forum can give, then doesn't that encourage me to go out, strive to become better, and better myself just so I can do it?

Afterall... even I know you can't build a rolex on day one of school.

Thanks for the reply and the advice! Its valued more than you know. Keep it coming!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Abottleofrum

...
Whether its 2, 4, or 6 years down the line.
...
Something solid, within my budget, and still capable for a nip up to Nantucket, or down to Florida Keys. A boat that was sturdy enough for longer trips and open waters, that would give me confidence to then embark on the later journey.... though, with my funding situation, this would also likely be the same vessel to embark. Not knowing vessels as well as the rest of you, I figured I would ask. Mercedes are nice, but a Honda can get you across the country all the same.

At the end of the day, heck yeah I need a bigger budget for around the world. No question. But Ill have 20k in the bank, and if I wanted to start sailing now, whats the best boat? The rest will come and it comes.
...
Afterall... even I know you can't build a rolex on day one of school.

I feel much the same as Jim which is why i hadn't responded tiil now, but it seems you are starting to absorb some home-truths.

My advice:

1. Get a job in an area where you can sail now.
2. Spend some of your $20K on a boat to learn on, not one that is RTW capable.
3. Spend as much time as possible on the water for the next 2,4,6 years (preferably the latter) learning to sail and doing progressively longer trips (Nantucket/Florida Keys).

While you are doing that:
1 Save like crazy so that you can trade in on a more capable boat in a few years time, when you know a bit more about what will be involved and what you will need.
2. Spend the next few years refining your plans.

If all goes well and you still like the idea in 4 years time, come back and ask relevant questions from a more informed basis.

[Stumble]

So where are you located. I'll bet you a watch battery I can find a yacht club nearby, with members desperate to take out new sailors in less than 20 minutes.

Let's no talk spend it all at once, but with your budget you can buy a pretty nice daysailor you could take out by yourself or with a friend any time you want. Something in the $5-8,000 range would be comfortable, easy to handle, and fun to sail. Annual costs... a couple of grand depending on slip fees where you are.

[belizesailor]

Like you, many new to sailing want to rush out and buy a boat because they think that is how to get experience (or maybe its just consumerism).

My suggestion is DONT buy a boat, but take every opportunity you can to sail anything that floats and build all the experience you can (structured training can greatly shorten your learning time) on a wide variety of vessels and venues.

To use your watchmaking experience example...you didnt rush out a buy a Rolex to learn on did you?

Save the $20K, dont waste it on boat purchase and maintenance. Build experience first ... and then you will KNOW what you need in a boat to meet your objectives. Now, you dont even know what questions to ask.

Buying a boat wont make you a better sailor...SAILING will...and you dont need to own a boat to do that.

Build strong experience and people will PAY you to sail their boat...just like they will pay you to work on fancy watches.

[Madwand]

My perspective as a rookie 52 year old sailor who's sailed on and off for a few years and still don't know what I'm doing...I retire in three years, own a Catalina 30 that I plan to sail the Keys, Bahamas, then the Carribean with, and will have a decent enough retirement that money shouldn't ever be a concern in that situation. After continuing to sail for the next three years every weekend I have off, what I plan to do is put the dream aside when I'm finally free and crew for someone who knows what they are doing.

Maybe it's the wisdom that comes with age, but I find it funny that a 25 year old thinks he's been doing anything long enough to be good at it.

[Jim Cate]

Maybe it's the wisdom that comes with age, but I find it funny that a 25 year old thinks he's been doing anything long enough to be good at it

As a practicing old fart, I got a chuckle out of that!

Jim

[barnakiel]

OK. One can be proficient at 25, if they started at 5.

I also get the feeling than in many intellectual undertakings, 10 years is enough to get hold of the basics and start practicing. And many life-long pros disagree with this too.

Sailing is not a very intellectual sport though, it is more about practising, making mistakes, then more practising, then making (hopefully other sort of) mistakes. Sort of ad nauseam.

I started sailing at 4, at 14 I imagined I was a good sailor. Thirty five years later, I think I am a crap sailor. Time gave me the perspective to understand what I cannot do.

Cheers,
b.

[JPA Cate]

When your contract is up, relocate to somewhere there's year 'round sailing. Volunteer as crew for the "beer can" races, round the buoys stuff. Experience working with others sailing boats, and try and get on with a few different skippers. You need experience on the water. Consider single-handing something you will build up to. Read all the CF threads relative to how singlehanders manage docking. Everything you do will teach you something. You'll learn to plan ahead.

Maybe you would benefit from sailing lessons; some people learn better by self instruction, but it would give you some basics.

You could consider a trailer sailor for an entry level boat you could have a lot of fun with! In the meantime, read everything you can get your hands on about voyaging boats.

Mainly, situate yourself so that you can enjoy sailing and see if you like what it actually is, rather than believing your fantasy of what a circumnavigation might be.

Ann

Barnakiel: You wrote, "I started sailing at 4, at 14 I imagined I was a good sailor. Thirty five years later, I think I am a crap sailor. Time gave me the perspective to understand what I cannot do." I didn't start till my late 30's! But you got it right! Maybe we shouldn't tell the youngies, though. ;-)