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Old 22-06-2010, 23:45   #31
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Doodles: In the end it is about honesty, and therefor the bill....it's about the honesty and being up front about costs. For the record, we are doling out about 5K or more to have the electrical panels, new inverter/charger, new batteries, and everything in between. If I'm paying 5K for a such a critical job then I think $100-200 would suffice? I want to know I'm not paying for a "lemon"!
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Old 23-06-2010, 04:09   #32
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MoonlightSailor - I understand you are annoyed, shoddy work,, warranty issues, etc. but be pragmatic. This is $275. How much time and effort are you prepared to put in to

1. Writing a formal complaint to the electrician setting out your position
2. Writing to the inverter company & subcontractor.
3. Preparing court documents (and filing fees) to contest the work
4. Turning up at court - probably more than once!

Write it off and never use that electrician again. Tell him if he does not make reparations of some sort you will never recommend him to anyone else and if asked your opinion about him by anyone looking for an electrician, you will say you had an unsatisfactory experience.

Then walk away and get on with more important stuff.
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Old 23-06-2010, 06:24   #33
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"Your Opinion".........a risky thing to ask for on the Internet!

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I believe the boating industry needs the same kind of accountability for the workmanship put into boats. I would gladly pay a reasonable sum of money to have an inspector check the quality and correctness of a job.
That service is already available!

You just have to pay for it. The only catch is that your idea of "a reasonable sum of money" may not be the same as the person managing the Contractor(s) and inspecting the work.

Of course you then have to manage the Manager. Unless you employ another Manager (Depending on size and complexity of the jobs involved not an unknown concept).

But I would make sure all the responsibilities are documented, together with a schedule of works to be undertaken - and fully spec what each job involves. and for all parties to then sign up to. Penalties for non-compliance would be a nice touch ......You need a Lawyer as well

Who to pay for all the paperwork and management personnel? Well, it could be some fella who has never met you before (and who simply likes to bang nails into wood for his job) - or it could be you (either direct from your checkbook or via the Contractors Invoice). However in your Socialist Workers Paradise (wherever that may be?) it could maybe be the Govt

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The marine industry doesn't have such a stardard and it's a shame. I has become apparent to me there are too many incompetent contractors out there doing work on boats who do not have the proper training and oversight.
Incompetency is the new Competency (in 21st Century Western Economies). And it pays better . "Do it Once, do it right" or "Do it Twice, get paid double"..........who really is the idiot?
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Old 23-06-2010, 06:38   #34
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I believe that the repairman should have charged for his time plus the cost ($80) of the repair.
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Old 23-06-2010, 06:42   #35
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Of course you then have to manage the Manager. Unless you employ another Manager (Depending on size and complexity of the jobs involved not an unknown concept).
And who's to say the Manager or Inspector is anymore honest that your contractor? Plenty of sleazy paid-off inspectors out there in the construction industry.

At some point you have to trust someone, so why not do the due diligence at the contractor level. Ask around, get references and go with someone who has a good track record.
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:03   #36
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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

Pay the man, and ask more questions next time.
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:17   #37
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No Outrage At All

No outrage at all re: grocery pricing....

You are free to get those grapes or Xantrex repairs anywhere you want! By the way, try to get two pounds of grapes on board without the grocery store. In some small respects, we are still free to contract (or not contract) for goods and services in this country. Probably not for long....
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:18   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintyspilot View Post
MoonlightSailor - I understand you are annoyed, shoddy work,, warranty issues, etc. but be pragmatic. This is $275. How much time and effort are you prepared to put in to

1. Writing a formal complaint to the electrician setting out your position
2. Writing to the inverter company & subcontractor.
3. Preparing court documents (and filing fees) to contest the work
4. Turning up at court - probably more than once!

Write it off and never use that electrician again. Tell him if he does not make reparations of some sort you will never recommend him to anyone else and if asked your opinion about him by anyone looking for an electrician, you will say you had an unsatisfactory experience.

Then walk away and get on with more important stuff.
I totally agree with Mintyspilot
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:30   #39
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. Tell him if he does not make reparations of some sort you will never recommend him to anyone else and if asked your opinion about him by anyone looking for an electrician, you will say you had an unsatisfactory experience.
Just remember this cuts both ways. I'm sure we all know boat owners in our marinas who contractors avoid or won't do work for because they have a reputation for not paying or being a pain in the ass. Do you want to be one of those over a few dollars?
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:36   #40
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Labour rates

The $80 rate charged by the Zantrex repair tech is a shop rate and is usually lower than a field rate charged by a field tech since there is no travel or removal time involved. The field tech has to travel to and from the boat and often has to to work in less than ideal conditions. As far as quality of work goes do not assume the person doing the work is competent. It is up to the purchaser to ask for proof of competency in the form of certificates of qualification etc. Trust but verify is the watch word here.
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Old 23-06-2010, 07:50   #41
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It seems like a pretty standard subcontractor relationship to me. He told you it would cost $100 an hour to fix your equipment and you agreed. If he had sent an assistant he was paying $10 an hour onto your boat to pull the unit would you have expected a discount in that work? He then took it to one of his subcontractors and paid to have the work done. He took all the responsibility for the work so how would it have been different if he would have popped the circuit board out and replaced it himself? If he had a paid employee that did the work in his shop would you expect a discount based on his salary?

The only legitimate complaint you have from your description, in my opinion, is the warranty issue. For that you may be able to ask for a discount based on his failure to use that information.

You ask our opinion.

Jim
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:43   #42
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The only agreement was his (electrician) labor at $100/hr. Only after my investigation did the electrician tell me that he marks everyone's labor up. This is information that I feel I should have known up front and it's partly my fault for not asking. I feel like I was being deceived.
Actually, I'd say it's totally your fault. Marking up the costs is standard business practice. The fact that you are unaware of that doesn't make it unethical for the contractor to do it. You're a grown-up; take responsibility for your own actions. Educate yourself before making contracts.

More than that, it seems like you're sure letting something very small irritate you quite a lot. You'll be happier if you just pay the bill -- and if you're so concerned with ethics, just remember that NOT paying the bill is totally UNethical. Just let it go. You have now learned something very useful and in future you can ask about mark-ups if you choose to.

Would you rather be "right" or would you rather be happy? Real easy choice by my lights.
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Old 23-06-2010, 12:35   #43
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Now the electrician wants to be paid on a daily basis for his work!? Why didn't he tell me this before he started? This was not agreed on before he started the work. Where I come from, the work is done and the job is paid for in the end. I know of a job he just finished and he didn't ask for payment until the job was done.
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Old 23-06-2010, 12:41   #44
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Example: faulty electrial job on my boat causes a fire and and maybe it sinks. Insurance companies are going to start asking questions before they pay up. Has an insurance company ever denied a claim because of a incompetent electrical (or any other job for that matter) job that resulted in a fire or sinking? Probably. Every scenario that we can think of has probably happened. Liability has to be proven and insurance companies sure don't like to pay for claims that are the owners fault (hiring an incompetent electrician). Thoughts?
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Old 23-06-2010, 12:52   #45
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Now the electrician wants to be paid on a daily basis for his work!? Why didn't he tell me this before he started? This was not agreed on before he started the work. Where I come from, the work is done and the job is paid for in the end. I know of a job he just finished and he didn't ask for payment until the job was done.
Simple. He's been here before.

Whether or not you have directly mentioned refusing to pay, simply by your actions, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that is coming next. And he will have that T-shirt - in various sizes

He's simply employing a risk management tool by limiting his potential loss. Don't take it personally, it's only business

My contributions not meant as a personal dig (ok, maybe my 2nd post was a bit ).........just I think useful to understand what is going on and why (whether one agrees with or thinks is "fair" is another thing).

IMO the key role that has not been fulfilled is that of a Project Manager. Some of that role has been defacto delegated by you to the Contractor (and he may or may not be acting in your best interests - but he's certainly having to make decisions and beleives that you want him to make them). And some of that role is not being done at all -if you didn't know (i.e. not simply hope) in advance what the results would be, would involve and would cost - how can you now truly claim to be dissapointed?
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