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Old 06-08-2012, 10:36   #91
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

Absolutely correct that you can do anything you want but if I were selling and someone sent me a lowball offer before they had seen the boat and stipulated that I must come down before negotiations could proceed, I wouldn't even respond at all. I'd just throw the correspondence in the trash with the other junk mail.
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:10   #92
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

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Absolutely correct that you can do anything you want but if I were selling and someone sent me a lowball offer before they had seen the boat and stipulated that I must come down before negotiations could proceed, I wouldn't even respond at all. I'd just throw the correspondence in the trash with the other junk mail.
and that would save everybody a lot of time .

FWIW, I don't recall FruiVita saying he was lowballing - simply starting on the low side. For "Your" boat that might be seen as a lowball offer or it could simply be seen as a ballpark opening gambit - for others it might be a realistic appraisal of what the boat is worth to them, if it is as described - and with boats that is a big if (even if yours is different) .

Of course if a Vendor is simply waiting for a prospective buyer to pay full asking price, no questions asked - with a cheque in the post next day for "the privilige" of being allowed to let someone who knows what they are looking at onboard - then likely will need a larger trash can .......or already be selling at a lowball price.

Obviously a Vendor can also do WTF he wants But if he wants to sell (not the same as needs to) then he does have to put some effort in with a buyer, otherwise it will very likely be a long slow process of self education. on own dime.....which doesn't matter if a sale doesn't really matter, but otherwise paying out for a boat that is no longer wanted will eventually be reflected in the price acheived, whether that be in 3 months or 3 years.....unless you do quickly luck into a Numpty with a Loan Form (but those buyers not as thick on the ground as they once were).

as said many times before...........each side gets to decide WTF they want to do, and if they coincide then game on If not then it doesn't matter (to either)...........Brokers get to Broker a deal - not set the terms, especially not as if they were set down on Tablets of stone carried down a mountain .

As the latest example of a minimal effort at a sale:-

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1006597

Methinks someone won't need a larger Trash can.........
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:34   #93
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

Thanks, everyone, for the advice and replies. All very good insight, and yes - I am new to this whole boat buying thing (is it that obvious?! ). Although I live a mere 75 minutes from one of the sailing capitals of the world (Annapolis) it seems most of the boats that interest me are either hundreds of miles north or hundreds of miles south. Based on the (almost) consensus opinion, I'd have to shell out some travel money just to see 1 or 2 of the most appealing boats so that any offer I make would be considered legit. I get that. The question then becomes how does one avoid having a boat sold out from underneath them between making the travel arrangements and getting to the desired boat's location? I'd hate to drop a grand in airfare, hotel, and rental car only to get to the marina and be told "sorry, we just sold her". The advice rendered so far doesn't seem to address that, but given the collective brainpower of this site and particularly this thread I'm confident there's an acceptible answer.

Another aspect of this adventure for which I welcome advice is after the closing. I am absolutely not a tire-kicker so I'm going on the premise that I will buy A boat, just not sure WHICH boat. Once I close on the boat I would want to get her back to a marina near my home (see above). Ideally I would sail her home, which means I'd want to know going into the deal that she's seaworthy enough for that trip. Yet not being experienced and technically knowledgeable enough to make that assessment upon my initial inspection I would need to rely on a surveyor's findings. If the survey yields results that indicate the vessel would require repairs that are substantial enough to require that the boat be fixed in place, I may want to back out and pursue another boat. I realize that many of you reading this are already thinking "yeah, so....you back out and walk away". However, I'm trying to avoid throwing money away in the discovery process. If I spend a thousand bucks to conduct an initial inspection, then spend (insert reasonable number here) on a survey only to learn that the boat isn't as turn-key as I hope - and I end up repeating this several times - it would eat into the budget I have set aside for the purchase. I've read horror stories about buyers who upon seeing the object of their desire for the first time in person were shocked at her state of disrepair and wondered where the hell the seller/broker got the photos and description. Yet by that time the buyer had already dropped hundreds or thousands of dollars into just taking a look with no recourse.

Perhaps this explains my now-generally-scoffed-at approach so I'm wondering: does everyone who buys a boat not in their backyard just suck it up and take their chances on these potentially costly steps? If that's what I gotta do then that's what I gotta do. I was hoping the smart and experienced ones among you could share with me a variation of the process that protects the buyer from paying for their own lack of deep knowledge or from frivolously deceptive advertising.

Again, thanks for the advice. I'm glad I found this forum. It's always great to learn from people who have traveled a path.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:00   #94
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

Regarding the issue of a "lowball offer": I've been looking almost exclusively online at a fairly specific type of boat (CC 37' - 45', 20-30 years old) and developing what I believe to be a feel for where the market is. Occasionally a boat appears on my radar that is similar to the others I've been reviewing but is priced about 30% higher. In that case if I am interested in the boat I would want to know if the seller would be willing to bring their asking price in line with the market before I make a trip to see the boat. Or maybe the boat is just that fantastic that it's worth the extra money. In one case I told the broker that his boat was $10k higher than others that are similar and wondered what made it worth so much more. He responded "make an offer". Clearly this is a broker who does not subscribe to the notion of tossing offers in the trash if the buyer hasn't seen the boat. Nevertheless, the point being that I'm not trying to lowball sellers with outrageous offers hoping I'll eventually hit on one who is desperate for the money. I believe time - not money - is the factor there. In other words, rather than make an offer today that is 30% lower than the asking price I would wait a month or 2 and see if the seller drops the asking price on their own. Probably won't be -30% but it will suggest to me that the seller is motivated and believes their boat's price is too high to get it sold. In other cases I'd like to know if the asking price is 'firm' because knowing the market (i.e. there typically seems to be lots of room for negotiation) I won't waste my time on that boat. So it's more about getting a feel for whether the seller is willing to negotiate as compared to throwing out a number that borders on silly and seeing if anyone will bite.

I'm selling a vacation property right now and I'm on the other side of this same kind of deal. Nobody HAS to buy a beach house, just as nobody HAS to buy a boat. If a buyer came to me and offered 30% below asking price I wouldn't even reply. However, if I'm still holding onto the property in October I'll be dropping the asking price a bit just to avoid carrying it for another year. I'm looking for boat owners who are in the same situation. I don't want to waste my time with a seller who listed their boat just to see if they could get someone to bite and couldn't care less if they actually sell. How to tell the difference between those types of sellers is the mystery, and making an initial probing inquiry seemed like one way to go about it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:19   #95
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

How many boats have you looked at in person? It's hard to tell condition of a boat from online pictures.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:28   #96
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

I sell homes for a living. Over 90% of the homes in my market sell within 60 days of hitting the market or 60 days of a price reduction. If it does not sell, it sits until the price is moved. I have put together reports showing history of properties in different areas and price ranges from 200k to 1.25mil and the same history holds true!

Homes sell for close to asking price. If a home is high, it is usually because the seller is looking for a price higher than the market will pay. Buyers pass as similar homes are priced 30% lower (using examples in this thread) will get a full price offer as they seem to be competitive in the buyers eyes. In a declining market we have seen a 30% drop in avg home sale prices over the last 6 years. If a seller listed high, say 10% higher than the market 6 years ago and reduced his price at the same rate as the market, he would still be 10% higher than current market 6 years later(I have seen examples!) even though he reduced his price by 30% from initial list price.

I even overvalue my own home, but realize that if I were selling, I would have to go by showing activity and feedback from the marketplace to be able to sell my home.

The best strategy in selling a home is to have strategic movements in price based on the activity and feedback of the marketplace. This gets the highest price.
Einstein said something to the effect of "repeating the same activity and expecting a different results is the definition of insanity". That being said, how many sellers fail to sell their home/boat, yet continue to state that they know the value?
How many sellers refuse to "give away" their home/boat? I would argue that if you have been on the market for some time and have not sold, you are not giving it away. After selling homes for a long time, I have yet to see a single one "given away".


Every day, I see people selling who won't take any less than full price and state they want to offer 60% of asking on the home they want to buy. I ask if they would accept that and they say..hell no...that does not happen in my market place. Point being, people seem to overvalue their own crap yet want someone to accept something that they would never even respond to!
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:30   #97
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

I saw about a half dozen boats in person before I came to the conclusion that I really prefer a CC over the 'traditional' aft cockpit design. Unfortunately, there seem to be very few of them fitting my criteria available in my area.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:32   #98
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

We're traveling to Flordia in a couple weeks to look at three boats we're interested in. I hope one of them we can make a deal on. And I hope they really are what their Internet ad shows them to be.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:35   #99
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

You're welcome to come look at mine if you want. I tried to send you a PM but I don't have enough post yet
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:37   #100
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

I've read and will probably use the following advice if I'm seriously interested in a boat at a distance:

1- hire a local surveyor to go and take a cursory look at the boat, take some photos, etc... and give you feedback.

2- make an offer based on surveyors prelim report & photos

3- negotiate as necessary to get a final price subject to survey

4- fly in and attend comprehensive survey with your surveyor, including a test sail

5- if big issues come up, renegotiate or walk away and if not, close and arrange to get your new boat home.

I think this approach makes sense and is likely the most cost effective for a distance buyer. Just make sure the surveyor is a goodie and you are clear about what specifically you need to know about the boat before making the offer.

Cheers, TCG
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:40   #101
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

To be honest I think your answer is to buy a boat closer to home (say within a daylight day of motoring), if not in your actual intended home port.

Of course that will restrict your choices. and could well also mean paying more than a boat elsewhere - but at the end of the day a boat "here" is actually worth more (to you) than a boat "there"....don't underestimate the cost (in both time and cash) of getting a boat ready for a trip at arms length.

Relying on and paying others to do stuff and also paying for mooring (likely on a more expensive short term deal) will soon start adding up . With the boat away from home you have to get things sorted now - wheareas in home port not so time critical, plus you get the luxury of being able to have a cheap looksee (before buying) at your conveniance.....and can price things up with folks who will actually be doing the work, or at least supplying you with stuff.

All swings and roundabouts.

Maybe as a compromise see if you can find a Surveyor who can visit the boat to give you a pre-survey report (cheaper as less detailed and no haulout costs - basically an honest report from someone with no financial interest in polishing a turd), so you can then decide whether to visit in person, before agreeing a deal (and signing a contract and going for a full survey).......won't be cost free, but should cut down on your wasted trips - personally I would never buy without getting own eyeballs on. My OK could be very different to your expectations........

.......could even ask that the delivery to your home port be part of the deal (don't expect it to be free!, if not in a specific charge - then reflected in a fuller sale price) - ideally with the deal completed upon delivery (likely you will need a decent deposit down - but if the boat truly is seaworthy enough to make the trip should be no fundamental problem, even if the Vendor has to put a delivery skipper on her - whether at your or their cost).

...........I can already hear those who consider anything different from the standard pig in a poke approach as heresy coming.........
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:41   #102
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

DOJ- the big red flag for me on this was asking me to lower the price before he had even seen the boat.

I'm also different in that when I got to sell it, I'm not going to artificially inflate the price for either my ego or on the off chance someone is willing to pay more than market. My asking price will be a fair representation of the boat's condition and what I am willing to take. I like no mysteries...
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:51   #103
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

"The question then becomes how does one avoid having a boat sold out from underneath them between making the travel arrangements and getting to the desired boat's location?"
It's called "Get your ass in gear".
You can contact the broker, and wire or fedex funds for "right of first refusal" or a similar arrangement with them. You send them some earnest money (and twenty bucks won't do it) and ask them only that you have the right to make an offer, or match an offer if someone gets there sooner, with your money to be applied to a deposit or refunded subject to whatever you two agree on.
It shouldn't be that hard. Meanwhile, if you think you want it? Get your ass in gear and see the boat before someone else does. If you want to shop a wide area, you're going to spend money and time on travel, accept it or just look locally.
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Old 06-08-2012, 13:23   #104
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

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DOJ- the big red flag for me on this was asking me to lower the price before he had even seen the boat.

I'm also different in that when I got to sell it, I'm not going to artificially inflate the price for either my ego or on the off chance someone is willing to pay more than market. My asking price will be a fair representation of the boat's condition and what I am willing to take. I like no mysteries...
Reading things different is all part of the fun ....hence (IMO) useful to at least open communciations - even at the risk of them going nowhere.

Some folks do overprice (boats or whatever) in the belief that they might get lucky or failing that have plenty of negotiation room. Some just have a deluded idea of value .

What happens instead is that most folk simply don't bother to get in contact (saves both parties time ).....except "lowballers" (if the boat was 30% overpriced - a year ago then a 50% offer now, is really only 20% lower than reality (ok, I know me maths is off ) - and that IMO is ballpark for "lets start dancing" - not a lowball).
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Old 06-08-2012, 14:00   #105
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Re: Yachtworld Asking Prices VS Actual Sale Price - or What is the Markup ?

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We're traveling to Flordia in a couple weeks to look at three boats we're interested in. I hope one of them we can make a deal on. And I hope they really are what their Internet ad shows them to be.
Good luck on that one! They almost never look as good in person. Pictures can be very flattering. Plus, they are not going to post pictures of the problems or the not so attractive areas. Adjust your expectations accordingly.
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