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Old 20-09-2008, 09:08   #16
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While your mileage may vary, I can only tell you from experience when I purchased my boat last year.

Larger Irwins prices can be all over the board. The style that I purchased I have seen or looked at from 120k to over 300K. Mine averaged on Yatchworld around 250k. Owner listed it at 175, and finally purchased at 140k. Worth it, you bet. Needed work? yup. But that is what I was looking for. The one piece of advise that was given to me and I will pass it along, is find a broker that knows the type of boat you are looking at and stick with him.

For Irwins, Gene Gammon was a godsent. I bet i spoke with him over the three years we were looking maybe 50 times. That is a broker you want on your side. So Gene if you are listening, Thank you.

And yes, I still wander in the Yatchworld, but now it is looking at what others have done with the layouts and upgrades. Remember, each boat is unique, and even new ones will have issues that affect the prices.
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Old 20-09-2008, 09:27   #17
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We all have to consider that NOT all sales pass through a Broker so only the seller & the buyer knows the true price paid. After many months of search I was able to contact the owner and we agree to use a Broker ONLY to handle the money and the paper work for the registration of the property.

I have my boat listed in yachtworld.com and check every week the status of other "similar cats" and I realized that few of them disappear during summer months in the Med NOT becouse have been sold but becouse are used by owner or in charter.

Last but not least I feel that sometime "the husband" will put the boat for sale to make his wife happy BUT at a price that will never be sold ... so he will keep the wife quite and still enjoy his boat.

Just my 0,02 cents of an Euro
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Old 20-09-2008, 16:13   #18
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I have been looking at catamarans in a specific size range on YachtWorld for over a year now. Some catamarans have been there for almost a year. I bet you could get less than the asking price for a lot of those boats.
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Old 21-09-2008, 00:59   #19
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To understand why some european boats are un-sold consider ALSO what happens to the dollar versus euro during the last year : few months ago was up to 1,75 and now is around 1,43 !

I understand that a lot of europeans are shopping in USA for both a holiday house and for good cruising boats not usually available or well known in EU market .

Seems to me that just 3 years ago not many catamarans were available on the market and now there are a lot, a lot originated from charter companies.

David M
Of course you "could get less then asking price" starting from contacting the owner that will pay 10% commission (in USA) to a Broker that, in my experience, often do little and sometime nothing.

It is what I am doing right now : I choose my next boat ( a 37' long keel monohull) and I am waiting untill the Central Agent Agreement will expire in few months.

In the mean time I am looking around for other options in case this one will be sold, having a second options help both buyers and sellers conduct a more relaxed negotiation.

2 more cents of a Euro
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Old 21-09-2008, 04:49   #20
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2 cents worth- yep, everyone has it. I have spent a long time boat shopping, e-bay, craigs-list, yachtworld, sailboatlistings.com, sailboattrader.com, sailingtexas.com, etc.. When u find a boat u like and the price is in the range of reasonable, look at same vessel from all available sites, establish a hi-low range, make adjustments 4 equipment, use all info 2 establish what u think the boat is worth, make an offer 20-30% less than that. You can use the reasearch u had doon as a bargining tool, along with your bank account.
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Old 21-09-2008, 09:11   #21
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I think the best response so far was the first. Buying and selling defies formula.

Sometimes, believe it or not, people who are motivated to sell quickly actually list a boat for close to what it's worth. You may see two boats on yachtworld that look identical, and are priced the same. One may be in really good condition, and priced to sell; while the other is a piece of crap that is overpriced. How can you apply a formula to that?

I suspect that in trying to apply a formula, people are trying to shortcut the research process involved in truly determining a boats worth. The real answer is that to determine a boat's worth you must know 1)market value of that type of boat and 2)condition of that boat and equipment.

I would argue that asking price has very little to do with what a boat is worth. Basing your offer on the asking price is ridiculous, other than the fact that you wouldn't offer more. Sometimes boats sell for their asking price, sometimes they sell for much less. Every case is different.
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Old 21-09-2008, 09:25   #22
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Originally Posted by dario View Post

David M
Of course you "could get less then asking price" starting from contacting the owner that will pay 10% commission (in USA) to a Broker that, in my experience, often do little and sometime nothing.
I am not saying sneak around the broker and make a deal directly with the owner. To do this would at the very least be unethical.

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Originally Posted by Fishspearit View Post
I think the best response so far was the first. Buying and selling defies formula.

Sometimes, believe it or not, people who are motivated to sell quickly actually list a boat for close to what it's worth. You may see two boats on yachtworld that look identical, and are priced the same. One may be in really good condition, and priced to sell; while the other is a piece of crap that is overpriced. How can you apply a formula to that?

I suspect that in trying to apply a formula, people are trying to shortcut the research process involved in truly determining a boats worth. The real answer is that to determine a boat's worth you must know 1)market value of that type of boat and 2)condition of that boat and equipment.

I would argue that asking price has very little to do with what a boat is worth. Basing your offer on the asking price is ridiculous, other than the fact that you wouldn't offer more. Sometimes boats sell for their asking price, sometimes they sell for much less. Every case is different.
I tend to agree. Boats are priced more like high end homes rather than cars. With high end homes there are no identical comparables and therefore no way to nail down a "fair" price within a few percentage points. With cars on the other hand, comparable cars only varie in the mileage and the condition. The other fact is there were thousands made of that same car, therefore you have a larger data base and therefore a more accurate method of determining price.

In the end, a boats value is what someone is willing to pay for it and not that the owner believes it is worth. That is the economic definition of value.
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Old 21-09-2008, 10:45   #23
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Originally Posted by dario

David M
Of course you "could get less then asking price" starting from contacting the owner that will pay 10% commission (in USA) to a Broker that, in my experience, often do little and sometime nothing.


I am not saying sneak around the broker and make a deal directly with the owner. To do this would at the very least be unethical.

David M,
I did NOT suggested to "sneak around the broker" but you have to understand that
the "Central Listing" (exclusivity) is NOT so common in Europe and if you can contact the owner becouse he is also promoting the sale in Internet you already saved a 10%.

In my case I was living in Costa Rica, the owner was from UK and the boat was in France. Being able to contact the owner saved me a lot of money that I invested in travelling to Europe and inspect few boats.

Good hunting with or without Brokers, Dario
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Old 21-09-2008, 10:47   #24
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Dario,
Now I understand what you were saying. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 21-09-2008, 11:28   #25
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I've bought and sold more than twenty boats of my own, and worked for a couple of Catamaran Brokerages for several years. This entire discussion, with few exceptions has been based more on wishful thinking than anything else. Its pretty easy to distinguish buyers from sellers based on their idea of what a boat will sell for! In my experience:
1. Multi hulls have an average life on the market of 12 months. It has nothing to do with pricing, it just takes that long for the final buyer to come to the table, because it is such a small, specialized market with prices higher than houses.
2. SoldBoat is the only, semi-reliable report of selling prices. NADA and Bluebook are fine for trailerable outboards, fall down on the job for inboards and small cruisers and are wholly out of touch with the reality of bigboat and sailboat prices. NO ONE reports actual selling price of these specialty, luxury market items to either of these publishers. Lenders who use these references are Babes in the Woods, and are experiencing some drastically rude awakenings in today's market.
3. Knowing the year, make and model of a sailboat is next to meaningless. A continuously upgraded and maintained 20 year old boat is worth more than an identical 5 year old boat that has had no use in the last 4 years. New looks, fads, and technology are the only factors that sell newer boats. For better or worse, your single best resource for measuring the condition of a prospective boat is a COMPETENT survey from a surveyor who is NOT recommended by a broker. That is the surveyor you want to use when you are SELLING.
4. Selling prices are all over the chart because values are all over the chart. And value is relative to one buyer only. Within a very wide set of limits, its not about how much money the buyer can round up; its about how much he is willing to spend on a dream. No one NEEDS a sailboat.
5. Negotiation is a blood sport for a small portion of the players in this market; getting the best deal is sometimes more important than the boat itself. FEAR of being the loser in this sport keeps a lot of people from reaching for that dream. Just THINK about what that means! Hint: ego trumps imagination?

The dream of sailing off into a beautiful tomorrow is what motivates all of us except the most rabid racer. Whether we indulge that dream or squirm on the fence for years is fundamentally a question of whether we will go small now, or wait for reality to fill the picture in our minds. Either way, somewhere between 25 and 50% of all those dreamers will be disillusioned. The Sooners can move on to achieve a different dream. The laters will just be not happy. Only half of us will get a taste of that dream. Here's the big question; a thoughtful answer is required: What, exactly, are you waiting for?
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Old 21-09-2008, 11:36   #26
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Very well spoken sandy!

To answer your question, I am waiting for my son to turn 18 before I go sailing off over the horizon. I'm know my ex would not approve of me taking him with me until then.
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Old 21-09-2008, 11:42   #27
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Sandy,

Quite a good summary! Dreams and reality have a funny way of meeting and going together or not as the case may be.
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Old 21-09-2008, 12:02   #28
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How much of a percentage do you discount the Yachtworld price by when you shop?
I don't. Prices on Yachtworld for the most part reflect what a buyer feels he can sell his boat for. Sometimes this is reasonble. Often it's not even in the ball park. There is no standard mark up. The price may reflect typical boat sales or it may not. You need to know what you are willing to pay for any specific boat. This price will refelct your desires and what other similar boats may be purchased for.

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Do you feel the "blue book" prices represent a good starting offer or better yet a target final price?
I think right now it is a buyer's market and the blue book prices tend to overstate what many boats probably can be purchased for. Also, unlike cars, many boat models may only sell a handful a year, so for many boats I don't think one can really talk in terms of a market price the way one can with cars.


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Please feel free to weigh in with anecdotal info/stories.
I've looked at prices on yachtworld for years and one the asking price for the same model of boat can vary temendously and the very same boat often comes back on the market with a very different asking price.

I'm in the process of an offer on a boat that has been on the market for two years or more. The original asking price was well over $22,000. It has dropped twice and is now under $17,000 which is the listed BUC value, but I'm sure I can get it for a few grand under that.

Several years ago, I was in the market for a Telstar Trimaran. There were two that I found, both I believe both were listed on yachtworld. One in New England originally had an asking price of 35K which had been dropped down to the mid 20s. The owner was conviced that taking out broken instruments and sealing the holes with west system somehow greatly increased the value of the boat. (I tried explaining to him that the first thing I'd do was redrill the holes to replace the needed instruments he had taken out, but this didn't help). They wouldn't even entertain an offer that wasn't notably over 20K, so I passed. (BUC price was 15-17K I think) Within a few months I had purchased another Telstar for 16K which was only a couple grand below the original asking price. The other Telstar remained on the market for at least another year.



Again, when you are looking at yachworld, you are not dealing with one dealership and I don't think you can make any assumptions about any standard mark up. Spend the time to see what other similar boats have sold for. NADA and BUC may offer some guideance, but again with models that sell infrequently, the data from the last couple years of sales may not be very indicitive of what a boat can be purchased for today. Also, along the lines of what was said above, boat conditions and outfitting can vary drastically and this maybe worth far more to you than the 10-20% refelcted in the BUC variance.
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Old 21-09-2008, 12:29   #29
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Interesting post Sandy and valid observations from someone in the biz.

I think that also makes you a little bias and harsh when you describe a buyer’s negotiation as “blood sport”.

I can imagine how frustrating it must be for a broker, when a serious buyer holds out for that final $5,000k and the broker knows the seller wont budge so….guess whose commission is getting cut?

But that is the name of the game for those in the business.

For the buyer/seller it is usually more an emotional one-time thing…. filled with self analysis and self imposed Stop/Go signposts that influence their somewhat superstitious mindset about finding the right boat, at the right price and going to sea.

For those who have never done it before, or wonder if their SO can handle the cruising lifestyle. Negotiating the very best price of what is probably their biggest investment in reaching that inner child ……. getting a good deal, gives them the insurance and option to change tacks and sell for a small financial loss, albeit a bigger emotional loss.


I remember as a young boy/man in bed with a pretty and willing girl for the first time.

….As hard as I would try, something was missing and I couldn’t orgasm.

She asked me that very same question: “What, exactly, are you waiting for?”

The truth is, I appreciated the opportunity to practice, but didn’t really feel any love.

With the right girl, that was never a problem!

Same with boats!
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Old 21-09-2008, 12:41   #30
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I've bought and sold more than twenty boats of my own, and worked for a couple of Catamaran Brokerages for several years.
Sandy,

Some really interesting points given, but you really didn't answer the question. Since you've bought/sold so many boats what representative differences between asking prices and selling prices have you experienced?
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