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Old 09-06-2008, 17:53   #31
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Land based stations have cost for repairing and replacing tanks and expenses for buildings, taxes, land, etc. The fuel docks charge more because they can and because it is for a boat you will pay more. Nothing complicated.
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Old 09-06-2008, 18:47   #32
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Actually marinas have more expenses for several reasons.

Waterfront property taxes are higher. Regulations on the fuel system are much more stringent. Double containment on the fuel tank, the hose from the tank to the pumps is special and MANY dollars per foot, for every turn of the dock the couplings are hundreds of dollars each (must allow for flex with zero leak), insurance for a marina fuel system is much more than land based (more fire hazard, pollution potential), the list goes on. And more personnel are needed (I've never had an attendant come out to help guide my car up to the pumps).

Add all that up, and I think it'd cost even more except for the volume they sell to each customer.

Oh, and ask any convenience store owner about where his profit comes from. They make more from soft drinks than from fuel. They just need the fuel to get the customers in. I suspect most marinas also charge a little more so they can actually make a reasonable profit instead of close to a loss-leader like convenience stores.
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Old 09-06-2008, 19:04   #33
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Hey, you are correcting. Being in business for 30, I have come to find that customers don't understand the principal of "expenses". They figure is you sell it for what it cost you, then you must be breaking even. They ought to at least require a college course of "Finances for Dummies" along with that degree in philosophy or eastern religions.
Dock owners have to feed their family and pay their employees just like everybody else.
At least I get a small sense of pleasure when I watch those "stink boat" guy fill up those big tanks>
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Old 09-06-2008, 19:18   #34
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fullafrisky,
Yes, you are right. You have to feed an family and stay in business. I do not begrudge you for making a living. If I can pay, I will. If I have to go else where, I will. I guess my biggest problem is people in the marine business lose their business because of taxes and business men that desire to make the property into a condo. Thank you for charging what you do to stay in business.
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Old 09-06-2008, 20:16   #35
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At least I get a small sense of pleasure when I watch those "stink boat" guy fill up those big tanks>
Only small? I have great pleasure. Stopped at the dock a few weeks back and a stinky, not even a big one, was passing through $600. I filled up at the evil cost of $26 and he was passing through 850. I tidied up and just as I was leaving he passed through $1500. My sly smile offset his long face

It's the suits in ivory towers sitting on their arse all day shouting "Buy Buy Sell Sell" are the ones who need shooting not the poor bloke putting the pump nozzle into your boat. More power to you Fullafrisky.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:28   #36
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Only small? I have great pleasure. Stopped at the dock a few weeks back and a stinky, not even a big one, was passing through $600. I filled up at the evil cost of $26 and he was passing through 850. I tidied up and just as I was leaving he passed through $1500. My sly smile offset his long face
I don't want to start up a debate between power vs. sail, but I don't mind you laughing at me at the pumps if you don't mind me laughing at you when you go to replace your sails....

There was someone who looked at costs of ownership and said that over time, power vs. sail came out about the same. I wonder if that was worldwide, in other words, based on average price of fuel while cruising.

If it was based on US fuel prices, I bet they aren't on an even keel now. Sailboats are looking better all the time, even for a power boater like me.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:34   #37
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I just bought 25 litres of Diesel for US$38 bucks. Damn I only filled that freakin' tank 3 months ago and leaked out the last 5 litres due to a fuel line leak we had to chase down.

Oh, well start saving my pennies. I'll need to refil again sometime in September...
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:35   #38
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... There was someone who looked at costs of ownership and said that over time, power vs. sail came out about the same. I wonder if that was worldwide, in other words, based on average price of fuel while cruising...
It was Robert Beebe, in his book "Voyaging Under Power"

Voyaging Under Power - Google Book Search
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:18   #39
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Wheels Posting #18: "...Was listening to a couple of economists this morning and ...."

Listening to them in the privacy of your bathroom is one thing, but actually admitting to it publicly? Now thats seriously coming out of the closet.
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Old 10-06-2008, 14:34   #40
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I'd say yachts are winning the battle hands down these days. The US has one of the cheapest fuel prices so if power boats are on the back foot there they will be worse off in most other places except maybe Dubai and that area. We are currently paying US$6.50 gallon for average grade.

I just got a new headsail, a racing one, and it cost me 160 gallons of fuel. At 1gal/hr I'll still be sailing long after the powerboat has been back to re-fuel. And 1gal/hr is low fuel usage these days in many powerboats. A new Spinnaker 215 gallons. A new main approx. 370 gallons odd. So for a full set that's 745 gallons at todays rate.

I was chatting with a bloke last week whose boat takes 1770 gals a load, which at full speed is only 200 miles worth, OUCH! A mate had a 24ft odd fizzy which takes 60 gals a load which he can easy use in a day, he's a mad fisho and probably reasonable common. An average 115hp outboard uses 5 gallons an hour or up to 9 at full titty or the same as my full set of sails per 120hrs at fast cruise or 84 hrs at full hammer down.

My sails will be used for 5 years (racing then downgraded to cruising), many would use them twice that, so currently my 'power' cost is around 150 gallons a year, probably a bit less. On top of that I'll use 10-15 gallons of actual fuel a year, 12.8gal in the last 12 months.

Dacust, I wasn't laughing at the poor bloke as such. More at the thought of all the people I know who keep using the old 'yachts are so slow and take forever to get anywhere' line. Strangely I haven't heard much like that of late and the fuel costs makes zero difference to me whether I go boating tomorrow or not. Today fuel costs is a big factor in many peoples decision to go for a powerboat tomorrow.

Our biggest ongoing liquid cost is most likely to be beer and rum. I don't want to work that one as I don't think I'll like the answer.

In the US the powerboats won't look quite so bad due to the cheaper fuel and I don't know what sails cost there so all of this in NZ based and converted into that funny old school measurement system and US$ at todays rate. Boats used are a reasonable 'average mid range' as found here.
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Old 10-06-2008, 14:59   #41
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I'd say yachts are winning the battle hands down these days. The US has one of the cheapest fuel prices so if power boats are on the back foot there they will be worse off in most other places except maybe Dubai and that area. We are currently paying US$6.50 gallon for average grade.

I just got a new headsail, a racing one, and it cost me 160 gallons of fuel. At 1gal/hr I'll still be sailing long after the powerboat has been back to re-fuel. And 1gal/hr is low fuel usage these days in many powerboats. A new Spinnaker 215 gallons. A new main approx. 370 gallons odd. So for a full set that's 745 gallons at todays rate.

I was chatting with a bloke last week whose boat takes 1770 gals a load, which at full speed is only 200 miles worth, OUCH! A mate had a 24ft odd fizzy which takes 60 gals a load which he can easy use in a day, he's a mad fisho and probably reasonable common. An average 115hp outboard uses 5 gallons an hour or up to 9 at full titty or the same as my full set of sails per 120hrs at fast cruise or 84 hrs at full hammer down.

My sails will be used for 5 years (racing then downgraded to cruising), many would use them twice that, so currently my 'power' cost is around 150 gallons a year, probably a bit less. On top of that I'll use 10-15 gallons of actual fuel a year, 12.8gal in the last 12 months.

Dacust, I wasn't laughing at the poor bloke as such. More at the thought of all the people I know who keep using the old 'yachts are so slow and take forever to get anywhere' line. Strangely I haven't heard much like that of late and the fuel costs makes zero difference to me whether I go boating tomorrow or not. Today fuel costs is a big factor in many peoples decision to go for a powerboat tomorrow.

Our biggest ongoing liquid cost is most likely to be beer and rum. I don't want to work that one as I don't think I'll like the answer.

In the US the powerboats won't look quite so bad due to the cheaper fuel and I don't know what sails cost there so all of this in NZ based and converted into that funny old school measurement system and US$ at todays rate. Boats used are a reasonable 'average mid range' as found here.
Well, to split hairs (me splitting hairs, not you: you had good logic) there are other costs as well, rigging, etc. But still, your figures are probably pretty good.

I like powerboats better for inshore and close-shore use. I like having 20kts to run from a storm. I like sitting 15 feet up where the view in the ditch is MUCH better. When that gets old (seldom) I like driving downstairs from a heated helm in 35 degree rain and in AC during 100 degree+ days. I like the increased room, larger ports, etc. [mode smartass="on"]And I have the power to pull sailboats off sandbars. [/mode]

But if I was cruising offshore I'd go sailboat. You may temporarily run out of fuel during a calm, but you'll eventually get wind. I run out in my boat I'm "sunk". I also like the total quiet under sail and the expertise it takes to operate. Lots of reasons to like sailboats.

But overall, as long as I can aford it, I'll keep my powerboat.

1770 gals for 200 miles? Yikes! Make me feel much better about 400 gallons for 600 miles. Well, almost 800 miles at a trawl, 450-500 at 20+knots. I can get 600 miles (400 planned with 1/3 reserve) at 18kts.

And sorry for the archaic US system of measures. We ARE an arrogant bunch, ain't we. (I'm not trying to be funny, here...) I know the metric system, but can't think in it.
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Old 10-06-2008, 15:30   #42
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I thought rigging and so on but offset that against fuel filters, servicing, oil changes and the things motors just consume. Though ropes but being in that game we see powerboats use as much as yachties. Yachties being tight arsed buggers tend to look after their ropes more.

The 1770gals was a Maritimo 60 so a bit extreme really. I do know of many launches that only use 1-2 gallons an hour as well but I sail past most of them. But I know many who can easily burn US$140 of gas (an NZ cost) in a weekend. The only thing we have that would come close to that would be the booze bill, often well exceed it.

I have noticed here a few bigger powerboat owners are now looking at yachts instead. Many of the new yachts have it all now and buttons for sail handling so a viable option for those who have little sailing experience. Be interesting to see how it all pans out over time.

I started school in imperial and finish in metric. We also deal with many US cruising yachts so can swap between the systems not too badly. The biggest trick bit is getting the UK imperial (which we ran) and the US imperial sorted. I fly and always have to remember 'which gallons' when doing fuel calcs. You don't want to be using UK gallons in a US aircraft, the prop may stop a bit earlier than expected, not a good thing.
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Old 10-06-2008, 15:38   #43
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You lucky you! The prize of diesel here in Sweden is around 10 dollars / gallon.
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Old 10-06-2008, 15:46   #44
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Hampus, I was talking average grade petrol and now you mention that I should have been using diesel for the Maritimo example. It's early and I need more coffee.

Today in NZ you'll pay -
91 Octane petrol - 2.06lt (US$6.50 gallon)
98 octane $2.13lt (US$6.71 gal)
Diesel $1.79lt (US$5.64 gal)
And a few cents a litre higher on each at boat fuel docks.
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Old 10-06-2008, 15:49   #45
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Hampus, I was talking average grade petrol and now you mention that I should have been using diesel for the Maritimo example. It's early and I need more coffee.
Nope I just wanted to complain in general
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