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Old 13-12-2010, 10:58   #31
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As a data point, we got our boat at a bit over 27% off of asking price. This was higher because of a large reduction based on survey. They owner could not get the windlass "UP", refer, and engine to run, it was on the hard for two years. We took a risk buying, and got the engine running with several weekends of work, and not much $$$. I have not tackled the other two items yet.

The $$$ off of the price was about 1/2 of the cost of a new engine. We were wishing a bit that it would be toast, so we could have justified a new engine, but that money is being used on other things, like new canvas. The seller was motivated as they were moving out of state THAT WEEK, and the boat was on the hard away from a marina.

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Old 13-12-2010, 11:55   #32
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Paid 20% less than asking.
Put 5% back into survey issues.

I agree with the majority. Deals can be had, but you may need to actively look for a year or more to find them. Looking outside the main venues (YW, BOATS, etc.) may save you money but require much more effort.

Given how hard the economy is taking a hit, this spring may continue to be a good buyers market. Seeing boats on the hard in June could mean they have a reason to sell. Leave a card with marina managers ("If you find a deal, I will make it worth your while..."). You can try it now, but it is hard to tell by walking in because so many are pulled (at least up here).
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Old 13-12-2010, 12:24   #33
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All you have to do is try to use this to price a boat and you will soon see how inadequate it is. Nothing like cars and the Blue Book.
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Old 13-12-2010, 12:38   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VERTIGO View Post
Does the "rule of thumb" work for most boats or is the price a factor? A $20,000 boat selling for 25% off (for easy math sake) Owner parts with $5,000 A $300,000 asking the owner to part with $75K I know all situations are different however just wondering what has been the experience of the Higher cost boats, would one be laughed at asking to drop 60-75K off a price??
You raise a very good point. Boats are one of the very few things that have such a huge range in value but we still try to simplify things by asking about 'general percentages off...', etc.

The other two things that are a decent lump of money that most of us are used to buying are a) property, generaly well into six figures, or b) a car, lower five figures or less. Boats are unusual in the fact that they cover both these price ranges and beyond in some cases. Therefore, it's impossible to give a general answer for the boat market as a whole. 5k off a 25k boat is not unreasonable but 50k off a 250k boat (the same percentage) is a BIG ask.

It is true to say that paying the full asking on any vessel is very unusual at the moment. Unless they are literaly giving it away, any seller would be daft to turn a buyer away that will pay close to the asking price.

I've been keeping a close eye on the market over the past couple of months as I intend to buy a sailing yacht as soon as I (hopefully) sell my present motoryacht and therefore can speak as both seller and buyer.

As a buyer, I've already viewd a few vessels and after speaking to either the brokers or the owners, I know there is room for negotiation on every single one i've enquired about. In the price range i'm looking at, 70k and below, the average seems to be about 10% but i'm positive that once I actualy 'have the cash in hand', many would cave in for a lower offer.

As a seller, I'm advertising my vessel at well under it's aggreed insurance valuation but even still, if someone offered me anything higher than 80% of my asking price, i'd be a fool to turn it down.
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Old 06-01-2016, 22:15   #35
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
As I mentioned earlier, we paid about 70% of asking price for a boat that was "reasonably" priced in the first place but minimally equipped. Other boats that we seriously looked at ........


...........We looked at about a bajillion boats that, for whatever reason, just didn't work for us. These invariably come with a broker trying to convince us that we'll really come to love that thing we hate. We won't, so we walked.

As has been said so many times, the boat is worth what it's worth to you, and that has nothing to do with asking price. Don't put up with BS from brokers, don't get too emotional, be prepared to walk away from anything, and offer whatever you think the boat is worth.
I read all of this older thread and it gives some good indications of the soft market for sail boats 5 years ago. It wasn't uncommon for buyers to be getting 30% or even more off the original asking price.

I'm interested to find out what the situation is like now. How difficult a market is it for sellers now? I've seen target boats on yachtworld that have been sitting for well over a year. Is this an indication of a soft market for sellers? And if so how deep off the asking price can a buyer go?

I ask this since it looks like the economy hasn't really grown in the past five years and the middle class particular the USA has shrunk considerably. And now we have China in all sorts of problems that could cause another global recession. Or is indicative of an existing recession that no one wants to talk about.

Anyway I would be interested to read others thoughts on this.
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:54   #36
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by CarlF View Post

Selling price is much more supply and demand for specific boats than the macro economic situation .

Carl
Not really. 'Supply and demand' hasn't been working for decades (it's been totally distorted by the currency counterfeiting called naked credit, which pulls forward tomorrow's purchases, to today - artificial demand damages the Market).

We entered the 'end game' of a deflationary spiral in 2008 (nothing has been fixed since, fundamentals have been made far worse, and now are over twice as bad as they were in 1929), the road to which has been trodden since the mid 1970's. Japan entered this in 1989/1990 for example, and has done everything it can to avoid the consequences since, with the effect of only making things worse. As an aside, 2008 was the kill shot for the EU (it's over), but the message is having a huge problem finding a brain to deliver itself to.

The most common comment about 1929, was "Suddenly, there was no money about". Disposable income vanished.

The effect of this in 1929 was summed up for me, with a photograph of a car for sale on Wall Street. It was of an almost new, drop dead gorgeous Bugatti quality roadster, probably less than two years old, which would have cost a relative fortune new (when the Market functions properly, mild deflation is the norm, as prices steadily decline, as things get cheaper to make, more competition has its effect on prices, and that's why until the mid 1970's, buying a car became cheaper and cheaper, this also benefitted savers, as there was a proper return on investments, and the purchasing power of money improved, to the great advantage of ordinary people).

That car had a price label in the window, asking for $100 ono.

Cash, disposable income, is already disappearing at a rapid rate (look at the trouble rapid turnover outfits like Supermarkets and fast food chains are in, they have taken liberties with quality and pricing, and are now suffering the effects - in fact chains such as Carrefour in Europe have suffered for years, Tesco, which has had to exit its USA operations as well as in other places, and many others as well). Overheads and fixed expenses have become a disproportionately large element in people's budgets. Unreasonable increases in pricing (when even the suppliers are getting less for their products) are squeezing from the other end.

The more you try to avoid the inevitable consequences of deflation, the bigger the payback, and the interest on that payback increases dramatically. Bucking the Market is never a good idea, but it can be bucked, up until the moment when it cannot be bucked any longer. It used to be common knowledge that any business that puts its prices up going into a Depression, never survives that Depression. Essential resets that are called Depressions, used to be regular, very healthy, and when allowed to happen, cleared the 'Dead Wood' of bad business practices and fraudulent enterprises. We are way overdue such a reset.

There are an amazing number of boats that have been on the market for over 3 years, and I have seen some on the market that haven't sold for as long as 6 years. While you have the running expenses of a house, you can live in it until it is sold. While selling a car, you can park it for free in your driveway. While selling a boat, most people have compulsory expenses for storage and maintenance (e.g. insurance and annual imposed costs), over and above what they need for other basics. This is a constant drain on resources, and as money gets tight, getting rid of unnecessary overheads becomes an increasing priority, because for too many, they can't even start to get back onto a sound financial footing, with such millstones around their necks.

You can see its effect in things like outboard motors, with brand new 2014 models still available for sale. Maybe older ones too, but I have noticed the 2014 ones.

Which leads me into a supply and demand related question, as I have been looking at new outboards. Specifically a 3.5hp 4 stroke Mercury/Tohatsu/Nissan (all the same outboard). Along with an inflatable to put it on, both to be picked up in America (hard to get them into my luggage).

Why are American outboards and inflatables so expensive? In Britain, we have import duty on prices, on top of which goes a 20% sales tax (VAT). Yet the same outboard in America, seems to be uniformly priced, across the board, at a minimum of roughly 50% more (that's from so called 'heavily discounted' supplier) than that same outboard here. In fact, even that discounted price in Britain, is only a starting point, because we are asked to call for extra discounts, that they don't want to put in print.

A really good quality inflatable yacht tender here (I have been in the showroom to look at them), is about 1/3rd the price of a similar quality inflatable in America.

This is Rip Off Britain (where we pay way over the odds for most things) remember, so why such a difference, especially given the much lower sales taxes?

This whole supply and demand thing, seems to be completely broken, doesn't it?

I will say one thing though, whatever you do, don't get into debt now, and if you are in debt, get it cleared asap.

Because reality can force its way through the door at any moment, and if you are in debt, it can completely destroy you.

PS. It was this same encounter with reality, that finished the Soviet Union, and it was summed up there, by the common saying "They pretended to pay us, so we pretended to work".
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Old 09-01-2016, 05:47   #37
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

So, the more time passes, the more a customer with cash in hand can bend the seller and offer lower prices for boats, if I understood it correctly?
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Old 09-01-2016, 10:21   #38
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by Sea Frog View Post
So, the more time passes, the more a customer with cash in hand can bend the seller and offer lower prices for boats, if I understood it correctly?
I'd say you're spot on in most cases. Where, for example, an owner has already committed to another boat or for health or $ reasons has to sell. It wouldn't work in the case of the owner who just lists high, continues to use it, & really isn't concerned if the boat doesn't sell.

When we sold our old boat (after buying the new one pretty much un-planned in about 3 days), we had absolutely NO idea what she was worth & trusted our friend & broker to suggest a price.
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Old 09-01-2016, 10:41   #39
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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So, the more time passes, the more a customer with cash in hand can bend the seller and offer lower prices for boats, if I understood it correctly?
That's how the free market speaks.
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Old 09-01-2016, 10:57   #40
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by VERTIGO View Post
Does the "rule of thumb" work for most boats or is the price a factor? A $20,000 boat selling for 25% off (for easy math sake) Owner parts with $5,000 A $300,000 asking the owner to part with $75K I know all situations are different however just wondering what has been the experience of the Higher cost boats, would one be laughed at asking to drop 60-75K off a price??
rules of thumb like this are bad.

lets use your 20k example. if that seller could have asked 30k and sold for 25, but instead he asked 20k and solicited multiple offers, your 25% less is out of the question as there is a chance he might sell for more.

i sell houses and i can tell you that overpriced stuff sits or gets lower offers and houses that are competitive off the bat sell for what htey are asking and sometimes more.



lets say you have a product that sells for 100k all day long. 10 recent sales. you put yours on the market (same product) for 80k and get multiple offers. the guy who wrote for 25% off of your 80k cause of a rule of thumb lost out on what was good deal and might have sold even with multiple offers for more than 80k.


what im getting at is that each and every deal has to be looked at like a fingerprint as every boat is unique and has a different price associated with it. the price either makes people want to lowball it cause it seems high as compared to other boats they can get or it seems even or low...if the price seems low then you risk losing out for hte sake of negotiations.

rules of thumb are a bad way to assess a deal especially on something that is as unique as a boat.

now all that being said, most people overpice due to emotion and overvaluation of their own SH&T. I have people who have a dated home tell me their home is better than the remodel down the street and worth more because they dont build stuff now like they used to build it.

i know that the above is all over the place, but right now im in the office writing an offer for a client on a home so time is limited.

two houses to chose from...1 is for 175k and dated....the other is for 170 and remodeled. going to be writing for 170k and 5% in subsidy paid back to buyer.

so using the rule of thumb for making an offer on each of those homes would not be worth it. the 175k place will most likely sell for around 150 or so where as the house we are writing on is a value where it is at and the 25% off rule of thumb would only prevent thier offer from getting considered. This is known after verbal negotiations have been solidified and paperwork is being drawn up.


if you look at enough boats, cars, houses you start to be able to figure out if an asking price is high, low or right on point. this comes from learning the market. if you can find something for less money in better condition, that is what you should buy.
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:04   #41
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

update on actual price paid for this formosa 41 ketch i am xcruising--4650. usd. that is what i got for my ericson 35 mII oct 2014.
decent deal. i have since put into it mebbe 5000 usdollars, so isnt a bad deal, so far.
but then i know where to shop for best bargains ever. i also know what i am looking for. and at. if i dont, i ask a fisherman, or someone with more sea miles than me and with the specific knowledge i need.
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Old 09-01-2016, 12:32   #42
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
Not really. 'Supply and demand' hasn't been working for decades (it's been totally distorted by the currency counterfeiting called naked credit, which pulls forward tomorrow's purchases, to today - artificial demand damages the Market).

We entered the 'end game' of a deflationary spiral in 2008 (nothing has been fixed since, fundamentals have been made far worse, and now are over twice as bad as they were in 1929), the road to which has been trodden since the mid 1970's. Japan entered this in 1989/1990 for example, and has done everything it can to avoid the consequences since, with the effect of only making things worse. As an aside, 2008 was the kill shot for the EU (it's over), but the message is having a huge problem finding a brain to deliver itself to.

The most common comment about 1929, was "Suddenly, there was no money about". Disposable income vanished.

The effect of this in 1929 was summed up for me, with a photograph of a car for sale on Wall Street. It was of an almost new, drop dead gorgeous Bugatti quality roadster, probably less than two years old, which would have cost a relative fortune new (when the Market functions properly, mild deflation is the norm, as prices steadily decline, as things get cheaper to make, more competition has its effect on prices, and that's why until the mid 1970's, buying a car became cheaper and cheaper, this also benefitted savers, as there was a proper return on investments, and the purchasing power of money improved, to the great advantage of ordinary people).

That car had a price label in the window, asking for $100 ono.

Cash, disposable income, is already disappearing at a rapid rate (look at the trouble rapid turnover outfits like Supermarkets and fast food chains are in, they have taken liberties with quality and pricing, and are now suffering the effects - in fact chains such as Carrefour in Europe have suffered for years, Tesco, which has had to exit its USA operations as well as in other places, and many others as well). Overheads and fixed expenses have become a disproportionately large element in people's budgets. Unreasonable increases in pricing (when even the suppliers are getting less for their products) are squeezing from the other end.

The more you try to avoid the inevitable consequences of deflation, the bigger the payback, and the interest on that payback increases dramatically. Bucking the Market is never a good idea, but it can be bucked, up until the moment when it cannot be bucked any longer. It used to be common knowledge that any business that puts its prices up going into a Depression, never survives that Depression. Essential resets that are called Depressions, used to be regular, very healthy, and when allowed to happen, cleared the 'Dead Wood' of bad business practices and fraudulent enterprises. We are way overdue such a reset.

There are an amazing number of boats that have been on the market for over 3 years, and I have seen some on the market that haven't sold for as long as 6 years. While you have the running expenses of a house, you can live in it until it is sold. While selling a car, you can park it for free in your driveway. While selling a boat, most people have compulsory expenses for storage and maintenance (e.g. insurance and annual imposed costs), over and above what they need for other basics. This is a constant drain on resources, and as money gets tight, getting rid of unnecessary overheads becomes an increasing priority, because for too many, they can't even start to get back onto a sound financial footing, with such millstones around their necks.

You can see its effect in things like outboard motors, with brand new 2014 models still available for sale. Maybe older ones too, but I have noticed the 2014 ones.

Which leads me into a supply and demand related question, as I have been looking at new outboards. Specifically a 3.5hp 4 stroke Mercury/Tohatsu/Nissan (all the same outboard). Along with an inflatable to put it on, both to be picked up in America (hard to get them into my luggage).

Why are American outboards and inflatables so expensive? In Britain, we have import duty on prices, on top of which goes a 20% sales tax (VAT). Yet the same outboard in America, seems to be uniformly priced, across the board, at a minimum of roughly 50% more (that's from so called 'heavily discounted' supplier) than that same outboard here. In fact, even that discounted price in Britain, is only a starting point, because we are asked to call for extra discounts, that they don't want to put in print.

A really good quality inflatable yacht tender here (I have been in the showroom to look at them), is about 1/3rd the price of a similar quality inflatable in America.

This is Rip Off Britain (where we pay way over the odds for most things) remember, so why such a difference, especially given the much lower sales taxes?

This whole supply and demand thing, seems to be completely broken, doesn't it?

I will say one thing though, whatever you do, don't get into debt now, and if you are in debt, get it cleared asap.

Because reality can force its way through the door at any moment, and if you are in debt, it can completely destroy you.

PS. It was this same encounter with reality, that finished the Soviet Union, and it was summed up there, by the common saying "They pretended to pay us, so we pretended to work".
I can't agree more with you Ribbit. Your understanding of markets and economics is sound. What you said about the EU is also spot on. Reminded me of a conversation I had with an in home FX currency trader who lived in my onto building a couple of years ago. I told him of all the economic reasons why the Euro was way out of line with economic realities and it was only a matter of time before it substantially corrected. He traded based on my analysis a d within six months was able to pay cash for a waterfront home in Miami. I don't trade on stocks and currencies since my head is deep into my tech company. But that's a digression.

While a agree with another poster that for those who set financially, don't have any debt and have enough savings to cover their lifestyle including the continual out of pockets of a boat are never going to forced sellers. But then there is everyone else.

Your comment about the prices of outboards in the UK versus the US is very enlightening. It gives more evidence to what I am coming to understand about the US boat market. It's crooked from top to bottom. Sales price collusion and fixing is illegal in the United States. But it seems it is the norm in the boating industry. These idiots have no idea how they ar ed and have screwed up the market. No wonder Alibaba is doing so well.

Anyway Ribbit. Thanks for your post. It was great.
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Old 09-01-2016, 12:38   #43
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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rules of thumb like this are bad.

lets use your 20k example. if that seller could have asked 30k and sold for 25, but instead he asked 20k and solicited multiple offers, your 25% less is out of the question as there is a chance he might sell for more.

i sell houses and i can tell you that overpriced stuff sits or gets lower offers and houses that are competitive off the bat sell for what htey are asking and sometimes more.



lets say you have a product that sells for 100k all day long. 10 recent sales. you put yours on the market (same product) for 80k and get multiple offers. the guy who wrote for 25% off of your 80k cause of a rule of thumb lost out on what was good deal and might have sold even with multiple offers for more than 80k.


what im getting at is that each and every deal has to be looked at like a fingerprint as every boat is unique and has a different price associated with it. the price either makes people want to lowball it cause it seems high as compared to other boats they can get or it seems even or low...if the price seems low then you risk losing out for hte sake of negotiations.

rules of thumb are a bad way to assess a deal especially on something that is as unique as a boat.

now all that being said, most people overpice due to emotion and overvaluation of their own SH&T. I have people who have a dated home tell me their home is better than the remodel down the street and worth more because they dont build stuff now like they used to build it.

i know that the above is all over the place, but right now im in the office writing an offer for a client on a home so time is limited.

two houses to chose from...1 is for 175k and dated....the other is for 170 and remodeled. going to be writing for 170k and 5% in subsidy paid back to buyer.

so using the rule of thumb for making an offer on each of those homes would not be worth it. the 175k place will most likely sell for around 150 or so where as the house we are writing on is a value where it is at and the 25% off rule of thumb would only prevent thier offer from getting considered. This is known after verbal negotiations have been solidified and paperwork is being drawn up.


if you look at enough boats, cars, houses you start to be able to figure out if an asking price is high, low or right on point. this comes from learning the market. if you can find something for less money in better condition, that is what you should buy.

Great post.

There's one big difference, though, and that's that in the housing market, you have access to actual sold prices.

Your access to sold boat prices is a lot more limited, and the information isn't quite as accurate. What you do have plenty of access to is asking prices, and (maybe) how long those boats are sitting around.
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Old 09-01-2016, 17:31   #44
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Great post.

There's one big difference, though, and that's that in the housing market, you have access to actual sold prices.

Your access to sold boat prices is a lot more limited, and the information isn't quite as accurate. What you do have plenty of access to is asking prices, and (maybe) how long those boats are sitting around.
So true WindwardPrinces. Apart from the secrecy and difficulty of gaining access to real sold figures is the lack of clarity concerning how long a boat has been on the market. With housing the public can see that important piece of information in seconds via a number of free public access websites.

This would be a very simple thing to add to a site like yachtsworld. Strange that they don't do it.
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Old 09-01-2016, 17:35   #45
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Re: What You Paid vs the Advertised Price

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
update on actual price paid for this formosa 41 ketch i am xcruising--4650. usd. that is what i got for my ericson 35 mII oct 2014.
decent deal. i have since put into it mebbe 5000 usdollars, so isnt a bad deal, so far.
but then i know where to shop for best bargains ever. i also know what i am looking for. and at. if i dont, i ask a fisherman, or someone with more sea miles than me and with the specific knowledge i need.
Some people would do well to pay you as a boat buying consultant. I'm sure you would do way better for a buyer than many brokers. :-)

I'm impressed.
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