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Old 16-10-2012, 18:06   #31
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Yikes!

I'm glad that everything major on my boat only runs in the $hundreds, not $thousands or $tens of thousands!

Gotta love little boats!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
A few thoughts to help out...for say a 35-37 footer. These are SWAG numbers only! (scientific wild a** guess!)The big stuff to watch out for is:
* Sail condition (3 sails $10000)
* Engine condition ($10-12K)
* Tank condition (and can they be removed without tearing the boat apart?) Any tanks in the bilge over 10 years old are suspect. While the bilge is a nice place for weight, it's a terrible place for tank longevity. My 44 footer had 3 tanks. One was in the bilge. It was bad at 7 years old. ($2-3k)
* Deck water intrusion/core rot. ($4-10k) Could be minor in a few sq feet , or could require a whole deck repaint after the fiberglass work.
* Hull blisters. ($3-12K) Small area strip and barrier coat? or peel job?
* Keel bolts (buy a boat without them!) ($1-3k?) The yard really needs to do this.
* Rigging age. (New rigging $7500 and up)
This is basic stuff and doesnt even get into the "appliances"; refrig, electronics, pumps etc. Just figure that any bolt-on thing over 8 years old is bad.
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Old 16-10-2012, 19:29   #32
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Think long and hard about what you will do with your boat, and be brutally honest. Try to buy the boat the suits the reality moreso than the dream. I'd warrant a guess that 99% of boats bought for a dream of oceanic blue-water cruising spend well less than 1% of their time on oceanic blue water. Or put it a different way... for every hour that you spend with the sails up, you will probably spend 4 hours with the anchor down, so that your choice should take into consideration how well the boat "performs" at anchor, not just how it performs at sea under sail.
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Old 16-10-2012, 19:44   #33
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Boatman I didnt think you would die, but Im not a internet expert. I do own a 37c though.
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Old 17-10-2012, 11:57   #34
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

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Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
Think long and hard about what you will do with your boat, and be brutally honest. Try to buy the boat the suits the reality moreso than the dream. I'd warrant a guess that 99% of boats bought for a dream of oceanic blue-water cruising spend well less than 1% of their time on oceanic blue water. Or put it a different way... for every hour that you spend with the sails up, you will probably spend 4 hours with the anchor down, so that your choice should take into consideration how well the boat "performs" at anchor, not just how it performs at sea under sail.
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Old 18-10-2012, 07:40   #35
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Let's say you run accross a "bargain Boat" at $15000. If you have to do half of the list above, you might add another $25000 to the boat.
This is the situation I am in, but I don't know how it will turn out. The price I paid was under any other sold according to a list of sold boats I saw posted recently, so the starting point is in my favor.

Single cylinder 37 YO Yanmar engine that started right up at 50 degrees F (and I know it was the first start of the day because I was sleeping on the boat) - I am lead to believe that a really pooched diesel wouldn't consider starting at this temperature. Blue exhaust for about 15 seconds, then nice and clear. Back up plan one is to draft my truck mechanic buddy up the road if I run into trouble. Back up plan two is $12,000 ...

Sails were average sails, old but the stitching looks good. I am not interested in the last 0.1 knot, so should do a number of years.

Rigging is likely 37 year old original, but boat is fresh water only. If I had a dollar for every time I ran into the wisdom that rigging should be changed every 10 years, and a dollar for every boat I looked at that had original decades old rigging (at least 80 or 90%), I'd be rich twice. This is for me likely the biggest technical mystery in sailboats: complete opposition between what (is said) should be done and what is actually done. I am going to lift the chain plates and inspect the rigging for issues, but other than that, not changing it this year. I am a beginner, I won't be doing anything too wild for a few years yet that will exercise the rigging.

Cores: I have work. At least the cockpit floor, under the primary winches, and one stanchion. Generally high deck moisture readings everywhere, but then the survey was done 2 hours after lift out in the fall with visible moisture on the hull in places. There are reasonable chances that if I get the boat under a canopy and dry off the surface, my meter might give more favorable readings. Percussion soundings were good except in cases noted above.

Hull has already been epoxy barrier coated, so hopefully the blister problems, if any, are in the past.

Plenty of 37 year old gate valves, and likely 37 year old hoses attached to same, so a complete replacement or close to it is required of the plumbing.

The electrical is botched. Some work was done by the previous electrician owner, so of coarse regular house wire was used for the 120 volt stuff. No battery spill boxes, or any mechanical restraint of the batteries. Automotive battery charger. Home made shore power cords. All botched.

Canvas is "tired". No idea if this means I have 1 year or 5.

No significant electronics. Likely the 7 YO VHF isn't even legal in Canada as I could not find a sticker. Knotmeter and depth sounders have ruined LCD displays, they (apparently) work, I just can't quite make out the digits though. I don't have desire for much here. Not sure I would even replace the knotmeter and depth for the > $1000 it looks like this pair costs. About the only electronics I really covet is AP, and am trying to talk myself into a robust under deck system at about $5000. It is much of money, but to my way of thinking of more practical utility than all other electronics put together. Dropping a lead line 5 minutes here or there, reading paper charts and sailing by walking around and paying attention seems a whole lot less work that steering 4 straight hours, whereupon your partner takes over and does same. Rinse and repeat.

The boat is coming to my front (or side, not sure) yard tomorrow. I have 28 acres and those are the only 2 spots that are both level and accessible.

I really need to decide if this is a short term boat or long term. It really isn't what I wanted, but domestic pressure was bearing down and I had to buy something ... anything. When the end came, I had to choose between standing in front of a Douglas 32 or an Ontario 32. Douglas 32 sounded in way better shape, so if I were a 5'3" sailor I would have picked it. I am 6'4", so the Ontario 32 got the nod, warts and all. If this is the only boat I ever own, I could see myself being physically comfortable in it, and making it my own. The Douglas would always lack headroom and have a 9.5 foot beam. My capital expenditure plan needs to know up front whether I hold < 5 years or "forever". If forever, I might as well put another $15,000 or $30,000 into it now while it is easy to work on and I have the full force of my tooling and shop behind me. If a short term boat, I must resist the urge to spend money I both won't get back, nor use up the equipment the money paid for.

So if a short term boat, I need to do the seacocks and hoses, fix the core, inspect chainplates and standing rigging, and replace the electrical system. To do all this I am probably committed to another $7000 to $10,000, putting me north of $30,000 to get started. I am pretty sure I failed to get a great deal.

Next up would be stuff like AP, depth and knotmeter. To do this implies I think I am owning the boat for a longer rather than shorter term.

Finally comes the engine, which at 12 HP and raw water cooled, limits me I think to staying fairly close to home on the Great Lakes. Changing the engine I think really says this boat is a keeper. Maybe a heat exchanger can be hacked onto my engine, I don't know, but at only 2HP/ton, the engine is considered under sized I think.

Do all the above, and my bargain boat is at $50,000 give or take, a number higher than the ask price on all the other O32s currently for sale, and I have not replaced any rigging, sails, or canvas yet, that would be another $15,000 or so. Of coarse, my load for the next 10 years would be considerably lighter I think, as much of the major important stuff would all be new.

The adventure begins.

Boulter
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Old 18-10-2012, 08:02   #36
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pirate Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
Boatman I didn't think you would die, but I'm not a internet expert. I do own a 37c though.
Damn good boat....
I do however feel that whoever designed the cushion covers and lining should have been guilotined...
The most depressing interior color scheme I've come across... (where's the vomit smiley)
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Old 18-10-2012, 08:25   #37
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

ok so you have had the theory laid out for ye--now is my turn....
learn the above mentioned absolute rules of boat purchase.^^^^^^^^^^^^.
sail everything you can(research). make a list with the numbers you seek most importantly on top of list. make no sacrifices. make no compromises, take no prisoners.

THEN:

forget numbers
forget the theory
you will sail until you see what takes your heart--you will find one for you and buy her, you will cry and laugh and celebrate--and you will repair her and be proud of her--and she will sail exactly as you want her to sail. if you dont love her you wont want to keep her. is worse than finding a human mate...LOL
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Old 18-10-2012, 09:48   #38
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Damn good boat....
I do however feel that whoever designed the cushion covers and lining should have been guilotined...
The most depressing interior color scheme I've come across... (where's the vomit smiley)
The cushions in mine have been changed. This is my second 37c great boats if you can stand the heat for sailing a Hunter.
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Old 18-10-2012, 09:57   #39
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
A few thoughts to help out...for say a 35-37 footer. These are SWAG numbers only! (scientific wild a** guess!)The big stuff to watch out for is:
* Sail condition (3 sails $10000)
* Engine condition ($10-12K)
* Tank condition (and can they be removed without tearing the boat apart?) Any tanks in the bilge over 10 years old are suspect. While the bilge is a nice place for weight, it's a terrible place for tank longevity. My 44 footer had 3 tanks. One was in the bilge. It was bad at 7 years old. ($2-3k)
* Deck water intrusion/core rot. ($4-10k) Could be minor in a few sq feet , or could require a whole deck repaint after the fiberglass work.
* Hull blisters. ($3-12K) Small area strip and barrier coat? or peel job?
* Keel bolts (buy a boat without them!) ($1-3k?) The yard really needs to do this.
* Rigging age. (New rigging $7500 and up)
This is basic stuff and doesnt even get into the "appliances"; refrig, electronics, pumps etc. Just figure that any bolt-on thing over 8 years old is bad.
With costs like that, you just made the case for sticking to boats in the 30' range.
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Old 18-10-2012, 10:00   #40
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulter View Post
This is the situation I am in, but I don't know how it will turn out. The price I paid was under any other sold according to a list of sold boats I saw posted recently, so the starting point is in my favor.

Single cylinder 37 YO Yanmar engine that started right up at 50 degrees F (and I know it was the first start of the day because I was sleeping on the boat) - I am lead to believe that a really pooched diesel wouldn't consider starting at this temperature. Blue exhaust for about 15 seconds, then nice and clear. Back up plan one is to draft my truck mechanic buddy up the road if I run into trouble. Back up plan two is $12,000 ...

Sails were average sails, old but the stitching looks good. I am not interested in the last 0.1 knot, so should do a number of years.

Rigging is likely 37 year old original, but boat is fresh water only. If I had a dollar for every time I ran into the wisdom that rigging should be changed every 10 years, and a dollar for every boat I looked at that had original decades old rigging (at least 80 or 90%), I'd be rich twice. This is for me likely the biggest technical mystery in sailboats: complete opposition between what (is said) should be done and what is actually done. I am going to lift the chain plates and inspect the rigging for issues, but other than that, not changing it this year. I am a beginner, I won't be doing anything too wild for a few years yet that will exercise the rigging.

Cores: I have work. At least the cockpit floor, under the primary winches, and one stanchion. Generally high deck moisture readings everywhere, but then the survey was done 2 hours after lift out in the fall with visible moisture on the hull in places. There are reasonable chances that if I get the boat under a canopy and dry off the surface, my meter might give more favorable readings. Percussion soundings were good except in cases noted above.

Hull has already been epoxy barrier coated, so hopefully the blister problems, if any, are in the past.

Plenty of 37 year old gate valves, and likely 37 year old hoses attached to same, so a complete replacement or close to it is required of the plumbing.

The electrical is botched. Some work was done by the previous electrician owner, so of coarse regular house wire was used for the 120 volt stuff. No battery spill boxes, or any mechanical restraint of the batteries. Automotive battery charger. Home made shore power cords. All botched.

Canvas is "tired". No idea if this means I have 1 year or 5.

No significant electronics. Likely the 7 YO VHF isn't even legal in Canada as I could not find a sticker. Knotmeter and depth sounders have ruined LCD displays, they (apparently) work, I just can't quite make out the digits though. I don't have desire for much here. Not sure I would even replace the knotmeter and depth for the > $1000 it looks like this pair costs. About the only electronics I really covet is AP, and am trying to talk myself into a robust under deck system at about $5000. It is much of money, but to my way of thinking of more practical utility than all other electronics put together. Dropping a lead line 5 minutes here or there, reading paper charts and sailing by walking around and paying attention seems a whole lot less work that steering 4 straight hours, whereupon your partner takes over and does same. Rinse and repeat.

The boat is coming to my front (or side, not sure) yard tomorrow. I have 28 acres and those are the only 2 spots that are both level and accessible.

I really need to decide if this is a short term boat or long term. It really isn't what I wanted, but domestic pressure was bearing down and I had to buy something ... anything. When the end came, I had to choose between standing in front of a Douglas 32 or an Ontario 32. Douglas 32 sounded in way better shape, so if I were a 5'3" sailor I would have picked it. I am 6'4", so the Ontario 32 got the nod, warts and all. If this is the only boat I ever own, I could see myself being physically comfortable in it, and making it my own. The Douglas would always lack headroom and have a 9.5 foot beam. My capital expenditure plan needs to know up front whether I hold < 5 years or "forever". If forever, I might as well put another $15,000 or $30,000 into it now while it is easy to work on and I have the full force of my tooling and shop behind me. If a short term boat, I must resist the urge to spend money I both won't get back, nor use up the equipment the money paid for.

So if a short term boat, I need to do the seacocks and hoses, fix the core, inspect chainplates and standing rigging, and replace the electrical system. To do all this I am probably committed to another $7000 to $10,000, putting me north of $30,000 to get started. I am pretty sure I failed to get a great deal.

Next up would be stuff like AP, depth and knotmeter. To do this implies I think I am owning the boat for a longer rather than shorter term.

Finally comes the engine, which at 12 HP and raw water cooled, limits me I think to staying fairly close to home on the Great Lakes. Changing the engine I think really says this boat is a keeper. Maybe a heat exchanger can be hacked onto my engine, I don't know, but at only 2HP/ton, the engine is considered under sized I think.

Do all the above, and my bargain boat is at $50,000 give or take, a number higher than the ask price on all the other O32s currently for sale, and I have not replaced any rigging, sails, or canvas yet, that would be another $15,000 or so. Of coarse, my load for the next 10 years would be considerably lighter I think, as much of the major important stuff would all be new.

The adventure begins.

Boulter
Brutally honest post!
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Old 18-10-2012, 10:46   #41
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

Boulter, a few things you might consider. You only need a $5,000 autopilot to con the boat in challenging conditions. Get a used self steering vane that will steer the boat under most conditions and a cheap autopilot for motoring. You might be able to do the above for under $2,000 especially if you don't have a stupid wheel. Also keep in mind that a/p's have to be fed. You not only have the purchase cost but the additional electrical generation and storage costs.

A knotmeter/log and depth sounder are safety items. You need both to dead reckon navigate should your GPS fail. If the VHF works stick with it. Personally think a handheld is all you need. My expensive VHF sits below and virtually unused and always unheard when I'm on deck.

If the engine has been exclusively in fresh water, it will last for a decade or two before corrosion eats it up. It will probably succumb to non saltwater age/use issues long before corrosion. If it was designed as a marine diesles, the parts theft are affected by corrosion are usually replaceable. Even small tractor engines that are raw water cooled last along time in salt water. In any case, a 12hp replacement probably will cost considerably less than $12,000 to install. If you work with an independent mechanic to do the install, a lot less. Just did that with a 27 hp diesel and spent a little over $2,000 plus the engine.

I wouldn't be concerned about house wiring for AC. If the boat is going into a salt water environment, tinned wiring will last a long time. Having said that, the 40 year old untinned wiring is still working fine except where it.s been regularly exposed to salt water. I'm not advocating using untinned wire just that there may Bo other areas more deserving of your time and money.

From experience, finish as much of the work that you plan to do before you relaunch. Work slows drastically and is much harder to do in the water. The slowdown is more than just that you'll be going sailing. Seems to be just a loss of urgency once she.s floating.
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Old 18-10-2012, 13:25   #42
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

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The adventure begins.

Boulter
Nice post. I think your basic "problem" is that you already know too much .

Boats is more enjoyable when the bills creep up on ya, as that way you don't get to fret about them beforehand. For that pig ignorance is king .

The skill you have yet to learn is Boat Accounting. A style of accounting that would make even the CEO of Enron blush as involves a lot of self-delusion, forgetfulness and includes optimistic expectations into average current figures. especially the resale price .......and an abilility to hide the costs from da wife (the Auditor and the SEC ).
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Old 18-10-2012, 20:11   #43
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Nice post. I think your basic "problem" is that you already know too much .

Boats is more enjoyable when the bills creep up on ya, as that way you don't get to fret about them beforehand. For that pig ignorance is king .

The skill you have yet to learn is Boat Accounting. A style of accounting that would make even the CEO of Enron blush as involves a lot of self-delusion, forgetfulness and includes optimistic expectations into average current figures. especially the resale price .......and an abilility to hide the costs from da wife (the Auditor and the SEC ).
I perfer to buy parts, materials or equipment, hide them on the boat, forget about them for a year, then find them one day and install them, at no cost to me!
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Old 18-10-2012, 20:28   #44
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

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I perfer to buy parts, materials or equipment, hide them on the boat, forget about them for a year, then find them one day and install them, at no cost to me!
I had a friend that used to do the same with clothes and shoes hoping that her husband would think they were at no cost to HIM. When she would finally drag them out and wear them and her husband would ask if they were new, she would look him straight in the eye and say "no, I've had this forever....you've never seen it before??"
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Old 18-10-2012, 20:31   #45
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Re: Used Boat Shopping, Adding Up the Numbers?

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I had a friend that used to do the same with clothes and shoes hoping that her husband would think they were at no cost to HIM. When she would finally drag them out and wear them and her husband would ask if they were new, she would look him straight in the eye and say "no, I've had this forever....you've never seen it before??"
Wait a minute.... that's where that "old" jacket she was wearing today came from.
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