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Old 23-01-2014, 21:10   #31
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy View Post
I think I am following what your saying but just to clarify. The commission amount is not based on a number negotiated between the buyer and seller but between the seller and the listing agent. I think what you are trying to say is the "net" amount to the seller is important to him/her after sales commissions have been taken off and this affects what he or she will accept from the buyer as a purchase price and you would be correct. But that really has nothing do with the buyers agent. The seller is paying 10% to the selling broker regardless and the selling broker either keeps it all or forwards 5% to the buyers broker if he/she is being represented.
The commission amount is based on a percentage of the sale, which is the amount negotiated between the buyer and seller. I'm also saying that the amount the seller is paying his broker is affected by the actual selling price of the craft.

As a buyer, I don't really care what the seller has to pay his broker. It doesn't affect what I'm willing to pay for the boat. But if I bring a broker who needs to be paid out of the transaction, I've added overhead to a negotiable price. It isn't free. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 23-01-2014, 21:15   #32
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The commission amount is based on a percentage of the sale, which is the amount negotiated between the buyer and seller. I'm saying that the amount the seller is paying his broker is affected by the actual selling price of the craft.

As a buyer, I don't really care what the seller has to pay his broker. It doesn't affect what I'm willing to pay for the boat. If I bring a broker who needs to be paid out of the transaction, I've added overhead to a negotiable price. It isn't free. That's all I'm saying.
But you are incorrect. You are not adding overhead to the transaction. Either the listing agent gets the full 10% or he has to split it with the buyers agent. Either way the seller is paying the 10%. Costs you nothing to have a buyers agent and it costs the seller no additional money by you having a buyers agent.
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Old 23-01-2014, 21:47   #33
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Itís just like Real Estate (Buying a home).
The seller has a broker and the buyer has a broker.

Both brokers are trying to cut the best deal for their customer.

Also they check to make sure all the paper work is proper and in order.

Can you do this boat buying transaction without a broker, absolutely.
A smart boat buyer would not.
Well this is not always true . Many real estate agents facilitate the transaction to completion so they get paid, regardless of the buyers needs or expectations.

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Old 23-01-2014, 22:13   #34
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

I used a sellers broker for my last boat purchase, he also helped sell my current boat at the time. I found the experience of a buyer’s broker helped the transaction go much smoother than past purchases of boats. At the time, I knew what model boat I wanted but had problems finding many to look at. The buyer’s broker dug one up that was for sale a few years ago that never sold. He made the contact with the old listing broker and we eventually worked out a deal. Without his help, I would have never found the boat and even if I did, the deal never would have closed. The owner and broker were almost impossible to deal with. If I had to deal directly with owner or the sellers broker, I would have walked away. The deal took way too much time for me to close it on my own.

Now my experience may be unique but I think not. Dealing with an a**hole broker and seller are not uncommon. The buyer’s broker spent way more time than I would have to hammer out a deal I was happy with. In the end, I got a the exact boat I wanted in the best condition available at the time for sale.
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Old 23-01-2014, 22:31   #35
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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But you are incorrect. You are not adding overhead to the transaction. Either the listing agent gets the full 10% or he has to split it with the buyers agent. Either way the seller is paying the 10%. Costs you nothing to have a buyers agent and it costs the seller no additional money by you having a buyers agent.
No, I'm not incorrect. I think it's a bit naive to think that the buyer is getting services for free, when in fact it's their money being spent.

Yes, the seller signs the agreement, but the money comes out of the deal. And I have seen these fees get reduced if the deal is tight, in order to make the sale happen. It's called a negotiation for a reason. It's just business.

The question is whether you get better representation if you bring your own broker, and the answer seems to be "sometimes".
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Old 23-01-2014, 22:34   #36
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Cotemar,

Thank you for your answer. What criteria would you use for selecting a broker for yourself if you were buying? Particularly, what questions would you ask to assess their competency? honesty? Just being a nice person would not necessarily make them good at title search, for instance.

Ann
Well do not do what I did. I trusted that the guy that called me was truly trying to help us.....nope. I have been directed to a very nice man by one of the CF members that is now helping us find our boat. Get others that have been able to purchase to give you recommendations.
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Old 23-01-2014, 22:40   #37
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
No, I'm not incorrect. I think it's a bit naive to think that the buyer is getting services for free, when in fact it's their money being spent.

Yes, the seller signs the agreement, but the money comes out of the deal. And I have seen these fees get reduced if the deal is tight, in order to make the sale happen. It's called a negotiation for a reason. It's just business.

The question is whether you get better representation if you bring your own broker, and the answer seems to be "sometimes".
You are correct. "You" don't need a buyers broker.
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Old 29-01-2014, 09:13   #38
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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When I was searching for my current boat I started out on my own. I narrowed down the list of boats I wanted to see on yachtworld. I then had to contact each listing broker to set up a time to view the boats. It was a very time consuming and inefficient process. Some of the brokers were a real piece of work, hard to deal with, sleazy, and down right annoying. At the end of the first round of boat searching, I did not find the right boat, however I did come across one extremely knowledgeable and personable broker. I did not buy his listing, but I hired him as my buyers agent. He organized the next round of boats for me to see. We looked at one boat after another with him at my side giving me an unbiased opinion of the various boats. In the end, he found me the perfect boat, handled all of the negotiations and paperwork, set up the survey and the sea trial. In the end, I was very happy with the experience and it cost me nothing! I would highly recommend him if anyone is looking for boats in S. FL.
What is the name of this broker? Link?
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Old 29-01-2014, 09:34   #39
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

To add to the issue, there are brokers and then there are brokers. Some are highly experienced sailors and boat owners and know the market and process like the back of their hand while others are just used car salesmen.

My buyer's broker for my current vessel was extremely knowledgeable about the model of boat I was buying, was instrumental in me finding the right boat, and saved me a sh!t-ton of money, time, and hassle through the process.

Specifically, they:
- Rendered an opinion of the various boats then on the market with respect to condition and value. In many cases, they had either represented the boat in a prior sale or at least been on the boat in question.

- Helped determine an initial offer price based on prior recent sales (information they have access to but you don't), the current market, and the circumstances of the boat in question.

- Accompanied me on the survey. I hired an independent surveyor (based on recommendations on this board, in fact, since the boat was out of my area) with 30 years experience. To a degree, the broker was more useful during the survey process than the surveyor given his familiarity with the boat. In several cases he needed to explain the design and functioning of systems to the surveyor during the survey.

- Managed post-survey negotiations, which were not trivial. He was extremely aggressive during this phase and he saved me a substantial amount of money.

- When the negotiations were deadlocked, he convinced the selling broker to reduce the overall commission on the sale to bring us back to the table. It worked.

- Handled all the paperwork, including GC documentation, registration, taxes, etc.

- Served as an advisor during post-sale refit.

Based on this experience, I would never buy a boat without a buyer's broker. Well, without the RIGHT buyer's broker.
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Old 29-01-2014, 09:48   #40
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

A good surveyor and an insurance broker, you probable do not need a buyer broker. The surveyor will list the concerns and an estimated value. An insurance company can also give you an insured value for the boat. If this is all new to you I advise you go though a bank/finance as they will also look out for their interest and yours. Banks/finance also have a preferred list of surveyors, so best to use one of them. Using the above you should be able to come up with an offer with a list of conditions.

First get an in water surveyor to see if the boat is worth while and the value is close to the asking price. You can also break down a survey into a quick walk though rapping and tapping as you go, 30 minutes, and if you are still interest then a more detail survey. Prepare and offer with a list of conditions, present it and walk. The sellers broker is obligated to present the offer, no mater what they say. If the seller comes back with a counter offer you know they are willing to negotiate. I always try to hit/kick the ball into their court to see that their reaction is.

Broke brokers are not like dirt/land real-estate, they each broker/sell their owe boats. Many brokers will not be willing to split their commission, so the buyer broker fee is yours. So ask the selling broker if they would be willing to split their commission before you get a buyer broker involved as it may cost you.

Lastly I would use a marine title company to hand the funds and title. A bank/finance company uses them so why not you. Anyway I think a buyer broker is a waste of time and money.
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Old 29-01-2014, 10:21   #41
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Re: To broker, or not to broker, that is the question...

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
Broke brokers are not like dirt/land real-estate, they each broker/sell their owe boats. Many brokers will not be willing to split their commission, so the buyer broker fee is yours. So ask the selling broker if they would be willing to split their commission before you get a buyer broker involved as it may cost you.

Lastly I would use a marine title company to hand the funds and title. A bank/finance company uses them so why not you. Anyway I think a buyer broker is a waste of time and money.
Yes, they ARE like real estate brokers, who also handle their own listings. While every broker, land or marine, is highly incented to sell their own listings, which effectively doubles their take, they split their commission with buyers brokers as a matter of industry practice.

I have never heard of a selling broker who is willing to cut their commission in half just because a buyer's broker is not involved. It's just not done in my experience. The only exception is a boat that is essentially unsaleable and they just want to get rid of it. So I'm not exactly sure how going it alone saves you money.
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