The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[Keegan]

For those with US dollars to spend out cruising, your cost of cruising is going up every week that goes by lately, as the dollar gets substantially weaker against most other currencies in the world. The cost of cruising the med, australia, NZ or the So.Pacific, for US boats is going to be MUCH more expensive in 2010 with the shrinking dollar. This loss in spending power is regardless of if you are a scallywag or a wanker

[osirissail]

Vic de Beer >>>After determining that the costs are around $1000.00/month, I am seriously considering going again. <<< Vic, change the verb "are" to "can be" and you are quite correct. Not everybody can do it for $1k/mo - some can do it for less and some can do it for more (considerably more). The whole point of the discussion is that it is a variable based on how you want to do it.

Kratch - What I meant was that the number of "old fashioned sailor/cruisers" at any given time is pretty constant to diminishing. And "new cruisers" are entering the arena in greater and greater numbers as boats and modern equipment makes it easy to set out.
- - Just like in the ancient days when you needed to know how to rebuild a car engine and know how to manipulate the clutch and gear box to be able to drive a car. Now the cars have computer controlled engines and have automatic shifting along with GPS road maps, all built in. Basically anybody who can point the car in the right direction can now drive, and I have seen some sailor/cruisers in exactly that category. But that's a different thread.
- - In a market economy if you increase the demand (more boaters), the prices will rise. This is what inflation is all about. Too much money chasing too few goods. In sailing/cruising it equates to more boats and people wanting to purchase the limited goods and experiences available at the various destinations. Add in, that (I will go out on a limb here) a growing number of the new sailor/cruisers who cannot and/or do not want to do the maintenance and repairs on their vessels. This creates a whole new market in the islands for maintenance, parts and repair businesses. In Grenada, specifically in the last five years this area has gone from 2 or 3 businesses to over a dozen now.
- - You are dead on correct that having "local knowledge" of a place can cut your costs in half or more. And even more on the bull's eye is your recognition that you need some "depth" behind your financial budget to allow for "revisions" upward, if necessary. I have seen more than a few sailor/cruisers who - on unrealistically low budgets - end up "paupers on water" and when forced to do critical repairs or replace critical equipment resort to thieving from other cruisers. It has been a problem all through the islands where a good portion of the thieving is not from the locals but from other sailor/cruisers who just need to "borrow" something from you without your permission and never get around to returning it.

Don Lucas - The problem lies in separating the "romance of cruising" from the "reality of cruising." Just like when you fall in love with a pretty young thing - have tons of fun and ecstatic experiences and then end up "married" to her. All of a sudden - - what happened? The romance is still there but the fun starts decreasing as the bills and expenses start mounting. Then you either get a "divorce" from the formerly pretty thing or learn to live with her and accept the costs involved. Woman or boat, same difference. - - You decide how much you want to spend and then double it or have the ability to double it and then the romance and ecstatic experiences can continue. But be aware, some months your costs at anchor will be nothing more than the cost of what you eat and drink and toilet paper. Other months, entry/exit fees, boatyard expenses, medical bills, parts and repair services can blow your budget almost to the moon. You need "depth" behind your finances for those circumstances or your sailing/cruising experience will end right then and there.

Talbot - come on - this is supposed to among friends, don't introduce the specter of horror by offering your "ex" . . .

[oldsalt_1942]

How much you got?

[sandy daugherty]

Cruising is an industry. The people who extract a living from it far outnumber the people who are paying for it. Look at the line of people at the pay window: brokers, chandlers, riggers, sailmakers, engine makers, marinas, and all layers of government. The latter enjoy the benefit of simply declaring what their fees will be with no regard to services provided! On the other side of the window sits... ME! Checkbook in hand, I pay everybody in line, their dentists, their mortgages, their insurance and their kids college expenses. The line ends with the Tax man, patiently waiting for his turn, unless of course I take too long and the ides of April approacheth!

There are enough of us cruisers to go around, so many brokers, marinas and governments have found ways to deal only with the deeper pockets. Vagrant cruisers need not apply. This is done by raising the price of admission, or by chasing the shabbier cruisers out of site by regulating moorings and taxing visiting yachts. Its far easier to service one shiny new yacht with pretty flags than to try to shake the last nickel out of a passle of unkempt boat bums!

And the beauty of the cruising industry is this: no one can stay away from the cash register forever: Every one of us has to come in sometime, for dinghy fuel, dried beans, or dental work!

So; do you dream of dropping out and living a life of carefree, dollar-free sun-drenched bliss? Do you see your self as something of a totally self sufficient mountain man only without the need for snow shoes? Well, there is an initiation fee. And you will have to have a nest egg. And you won't be welcomed in an undiscovered free paradise anywhere within reach of an airport unless you are pretty. Or famous.

Don't be hard on yourself for being born 30 years late for a 30 year old dream. There aren't that many mountain men out there either; all the good caves are taken, and you need a permit to dig a new one.

[osirissail]

Kratch - you are asking for a hard number which cannot be given as there are too many variables - for instance:
1. What is your age? From your post it seems your are young - "student loan"
2. Are you married? From your post "easily save 1/3 paycheck" - obviously single.
3. Where are you located/starting point? Canada? Europe? USA - east/west/gulf coast? All very different places with significantly different costs.
4. Do you have a boat? Where? What? Costs escalate with size of boat. If no boat, start up costs vary from "free" to many hundreds of thousands.
5. Where do you intend to cruise? Your own examples of living in a city vary from $350 to $2.5K/month. Cruising in agriculturally self-sufficient third world countries is radically different from first-world tourist countries.
6. What is your health and health of your financial resources? Bad health means more equipment and access to health care. While no depth of financial resources (especially in the Pacific) will negate being able to visit a few significant destinations.
- - As you can see asking "blindly" for a "number of dollars" is not possible as the number would be meaningless. It is possible to sail/cruise as a poor person, middle income person, or rich person. Just like on land, the financial restrictions determine where - when - and how. And that can be simply determined by -- oldsalt 1942's post "How much you got?"

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Kratch - you are asking for a hard number which cannot be given as there are too many variables - for instance:

Actually, what I am suggesting is that, simply answering a question with more questions, and absolutely no indication of an answer is evasive, not helpful. Obviously someone who asks such a question isn't looking for a budget tailored to their personal needs, they are looking for a ballpark figure or range, based on whatever assumptions you wish to make (presumably you will state which assumptions you make, such as my above example that states inside and outside the downtown core). Other factors based on my personal information should be for me to account for. For example:

Originally Posted by osirissail

1. What is your age? From your post it seems your are young - "student loan"

Shouldn't be relevant. On land, rent is not more expensive for those in their 50's vs those in their thirties. if I have additional personal expenses, such as student loans (young) or healthcare needs (old), those are for me account for in my budget, not you.

Originally Posted by osirissail

2. Are you married? From your post "easily save 1/3 paycheck" - obviously single.

Obviously, this will have a small impact on costs, but not a significant one that will skew the numbers of cost of living (cost of boat repairs and mooring aren't based on couples vs single.).

You assume that, because I can save 1/3 of my income easily, that I am single, but what if the truth is that I make enough money, and my wife's income compliments mine for paying our expenses (rent) enough that 1/3 of my paycheck is easily saved, not because I don't have a partner, but because our income to expense ratio allows for it. truth is, my bass costs (rent/utlities/etc) being single aren't that much less then my brothers being married. And so, my example above of cost of living in Toronto, while based on responding to a single individual, can easily be adapted to a couple on my end. Are you willing to state that this is not true for a ballpark crusing budget?

Originally Posted by osirissail

3. Where are you located/starting point? Canada? Europe? USA - east/west/gulf coast? All very different places with significantly different costs.

Assuming your not talking start up costs, as thats different from cruising costs, then:Yes, location does matter, and this is what I would expect would be most variable in the answers, but that was also the case with my Toronto example above (to a lessor degree), where I gave a couple values (outskirts vs downtown core) to give an example range. Additionally, when someone asks the cost of cruising, it is a reasonable assumption that they don't mean how much is it going to cost them to stay in their local marina slip.

Originally Posted by osirissail

4. Do you have a boat? Where? What? Costs escalate with size of boat. If no boat, start up costs vary from "free" to many hundreds of thousands.

Initial purchase of a boat and start up refitting are seperate issues from basic cruising living costs. Size of a boat does play a factor, but aside from repair/maintenance costs, given that it is generally new boat owners with money concerns, and thus the boat is likely to be in the 25-44' range (a reasonable assumption, any bigger and the person is likely an experienced sailor or has enough money to not be concerned with a budget) is it such a huge factor that a caveat of "the bigger the boat, the greater the costs" won't cover it?

Originally Posted by osirissail

5. Where do you intend to cruise? Your own examples of living in a city vary from $350 to $2.5K/month. Cruising in agriculturally self-sufficient third world countries is radically different from first-world tourist countries.

Same as point 3.

Originally Posted by osirissail

6. What is your health and health of your financial resources? Bad health means more equipment and access to health care. While no depth of financial resources (especially in the Pacific) will negate being able to visit a few significant destinations.

Again, any personal health issues are mine to incorporate into my personal budget, and should not be a factor in others providing a sample base value.

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - As you can see asking "blindly" for a "number of dollars" is not possible as the number would be meaningless. It is possible to sail/cruise as a poor person, middle income person, or rich person. Just like on land, the financial restrictions determine where - when - and how. And that can be simply determined by -- oldsalt 1942's post "How much you got?"

So, if a familiy member grew ill and required you to go live with them and tend to them while they recovered/died, and you asked then how much it was going to cost you to live there, you'd accept "How much you got?" as an answer? Or would you find that to be a rather rude, dismissive answer that really isn't helpful?

Yes, blindly asking for you to establish a personal budget for me is not possible, asking for a basic ballpark that can then be built upon with personal needs/expectations should not be such a difficult answer to give as people are making it out to be. Hell, if you asked me how much a toothbrush costs, I could ask you a dozen questions to evaid providing an actual answer, but the truth is, it is far more helpful to give a couple ranges such as a simple one costs $4 and an electric one will cost closer to $30-40 for a cheep one. sure, there are the $400 dollar ones that someone can opt for, or people can make their own for free if they want to/know how, but does asking questions to determine which is the best fit of toothbrush for the individual (electric (rechargable or battery?) vs traditional? built in pick? tongue clearner? rubber grip?, etc etc etc), without providing a context based on the criteria they have asked about (cost) really help?

While most questions can be answered with more questions, doing so exclusively, without actually providing some basic information in addition, will only been seen as evasive (intentionally or not) and still provides no context for those new questions. For example, you state location plays a magor factor in costs, but as I still have no indication of costs to begin with, I can't determine where I can afford to go yet to determine where I want to go. However, had an answer been provided such as "basic food/maintenance/insurance/cheep mooring/etc etc etc will typically run someone about $1000/month, mooring costs in large cities can double that"... now I have an idea of what I'll need to survive as well as where I can afford to go (my budget wouldn't allow for too many large city moorings unless I choose the 2/3's skimping option from my savings plan above... as a hypothetical example). It comes back to the car example I gave previously, without being provided some indication of the cost of a car, my oblivious 16 year old son will not know he can't afford a Hummer3 by working at burger king, asking him what he wants from a car before he has an understanding of his limitations (based on budget) only goes to further confuse and frustrate.

Honestly, I think a lot of people are being evasive about the answer because they don't want people to know the truth, and thus encourage the lifestyle. Whether they do it intentionally or not is uncertain (and likely varies from person to person), but you yourself are an example. You have shown a distaste for the increasing number of "new cruisers" out there, and are unwilling or unable to provide an answer to a question that should have both a simple and a complex answer (you focus only on the complex answer and ignor the simple one), with the simple being a generalization that should typically be usable as a foundation to get into the far more complex answer.

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Kratch - It seems you want a definitive answer not options.

More along the lines of wanting a context to which I can relate the additional options to. Telling me a bigger boat is going to cost me more then a smaller boat doesn't do me much good when I still don't know how much a smaller boat is going to cost me. Knowing that some places are more expensive then others, aside from being incredibly obvious, is useless without knowing ether what a typical expense for cheep vs expensive place is, nor knowing where the cheep places are. The questions being returned are simply using the request for generalities as an excuse for being evasive.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Kratch

Honestly, I think a lot of people are being evasive about the answer because they don't want people to know the truth, and thus encourage the lifestyle. Whether they do it intentionally or not is uncertain (and likely varies from person to person), but you yourself are an example. You have shown a distaste for the increasing number of "new cruisers" out there, and are unwilling or unable to provide an answer to a question that should have both a simple and a complex answer (you focus only on the complex answer and ignor the simple one), with the simple being a generalization that should typically be usable as a foundation to get into the far more complex answer.

Kratch - I think you are a bit frustrated. Sometimes people don't like the answers that are provided.

"Truth? You can't handle the truth!"

To say that people (especially people on this forum) would discourage the lifestyle is laughable. Everyone here shares the same dream.

The truth is that it costs between $1,000 and $10,000 per month to go cruising.

Everything you said about choice applies to cruising. Everything orsirisail said is pertinent and goes directly to your point about controlling costs while living in an urban environment.

There are lot's of threads here about costs of cruising and they all result in the same answer. It depends.

This board has been around a while and there are lots of really smart guys with lots of experience posting (not me BTW) so I trust the answer of it depends.

As to what I am planning?

$4,000 per month (2009 dollars) on a ~40 foot cat to cruise Asia/Pacific. All my personal choices factor in to that number. I don't choose to debate my choices because my choices won't satisfy anyone else but me.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

As to what I am planning?

$4,000 per month (2009 dollars) on a ~40 foot cat to cruise Asia/Pacific.

You'll be living fairly fine on that budget my friend

[Vic de Beer]

Kratch, well done, you stuck to your point and finally managed to extrapolate an answer from convoluted responses..... which answers my question as well... to a degree (see post # 1).
What just did not seem to get across to so many respondents is.... nobody asked for personal financial advice, ....just an idea of what one has to prepare yourself for should you decide to go cruising.....not the cost of getting yourself set up from scratch (which would included boat, insurance etc.)....not alll of that, just a ballpark..... an avarage..... cost of living on boat per year or per month (I also understand that the cost per month can greatly vary as opposed to the cost per year).
To those who got all riled up over having to part with your knowledge..... thanks for the info, but, as said by Don Lucas..... lighten up!!

[Ex-Calif]

Kratch - It seems you want a definitive answer not options.

It costs exactly US$2,356.74 per month to go cruising.

(If it costs you more you are spending too much)

oh...

(If it costs you less you need a bigger boat - or my wife for whom I am still accepting offers)

[jackiepitts]

Well this is a interesting thread but I am not sure how anyone can tell a person what it will cost them.
I know what it has been costing us here in the US living aboard for the past 3 years and basically I can tell you it cost everything we made (5K a month). Our expenses included two cars (with payments), high gas bills, various other bills, insurance for the boat and paying guest dock fees approx. 1/3 of the time. The other 2/3 of the time we were either on anchor or on a inexpensive mooring. The boat (54' 1978 high maintenance sailboat) is paid off so we do not have that expense and we do most work ourselves rather than paying others. The boat was in cruising condition when we purchased it so we had few refit expenses. We did put several hundred a month into basic improvements on the boat but also spent money more freely than we will in the future.
Starting this month we are retired and leave to go cruising and our budget will be half of what it has been the past three years since that is what we will have. We will not have the cars and all the credit card bills are gone. It really does not matter if someone says we need more money as this is what we have so it will have to work. I expect some areas will be cheaper and some more expensive but somewhere in the middle they will have to equal out to fit our budget.
I have ran the numbers over and over and feel we can make it work on approx $2,500 a month if we are somewhat careful.
If our budget was in the 1,000 a month range I am sure we could make that work too but we would be in the market for a smaller lower maintenance boat.
Jackie

[Hud3]

It's kind of funny to me that someone would ask how much it costs to go cruising and then accuse those who answer, "it depends", of being evasive and trying to hide the truth. I don't understand that. If you planned to move from Louisville to Chicago, would you go on the Internet and ask any and all to tell you what your monthly budget should be? Why would you, and why would you believe their answers have any relevance to your lifestyle?

Believe me, when you finally do go cruising, you'll come to realize the truth of the answer, "it depends". I've never quizzed fellow cruisers in an anchorage about how much they spent per month, but from observation, it really does appear to vary all over the map. I'd guess maybe US$500 to $3,000 per month for "regular" cruisers, meaning without including the mega-yacht, "beautiful people" types, of which there were very few where we cruised.

I didn't keep a detailed record of our expenses for two seasons in the eastern Caribbean, but my gut feeling was we spent maybe US$1,000 to 1,200 per month. We did all the boat upgrades before we left, and didn't have any significant repair costs during the cruise. Stayed in marinas only when we were picking up guests or doing major re-provisioning. Dinner out in restaurants a few times a month. Cocktails and something tasty to share in the cockpit with other cruisers in the anchorages. Other expenses included diesel every month or two, internet cafes a couple of times a week, a taxi for guided tours ashore to explore each island, a few books on local topics. Food for two was the major expense--it costs at least 50% more there than in the States.

Have you read Beth Leonard's book, The Voyager's Handbook? She has a whole section on the cost of cruising, with "high", "mid" and "low" cost senarios. Have you used the CF Google search to research the topic on this site? There's a lot already written on the topic. You're going to have to come up with the answer for yourself, based on your circumstances and needs, but you really won't know the true cost until you get out there and actually do it.

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by Hud3

It's kind of funny to me that someone would ask how much it costs to go cruising and then accuse those who answer, "it depends", of being evasive and trying to hide the truth. I don't understand that. If you planned to move from Louisville to Chicago, would you go on the Internet and ask any and all to tell you what your monthly budget should be? Why would you, and why would you believe their answers have any relevance to your lifestyle?

Asking someone on the internet to plan your budget would be stupid, but thats not whats being asked. Asking someone on the internet what a typical cost of living in chicago is not so unreasonable. If that someone lives in chicago and has a decent idea on average rent, typical monthly grocery bills and average utility costs, they should be able to provide a general "ballpark" figure/range that I can then apply my personal need/lifestyle costs to. This ballpark won't be precise, it won't be the finished budget, but it will inform me if the savings gathered from my meager wages I've been earning in louisville will be able to support me in chicago, and if so, for approximately how long (so I know how long I have, give or take, to find a new, better job, as well as have an idea of the wage I'll need to earn at that job) as well as if I can settle for an average appartement or if I need to look for a budget place like a basement apartement, room with shared amenities, or other (cardboard box or friends couch).

As to the part about me accusing those who answer "it depends" of being evasive, how is it then that they can't give anything more then more questions and yet, you can give two valid answers in your one post alone ($500-3000 is a rather large range, but one asking for generalities must expect that some variation will exist, and for cruising worldwide on a boat twho's size can varry widely, a large range should be expected without further information... However, $500-3000 with Caveates is a far more reasonable answer then $1000-10,000 with no explanation whatsoever. The other being your personal experience.). As to discussing costs with other cruisers, I can understand that, but they are other cruisers who are living the life and aren't looking for advice on budget concerns, I'm sure if you asked for some budget advice, they would be willing to offer they're opinions/experiences.

Originally Posted by Hud3

Have you read Beth Leonard's book, The Voyager's Handbook? She has a whole section on the cost of cruising, with "high", "mid" and "low" cost senarios.

I'll take a look at that book (as well as many others I'm sure) when I get a chance. I'm still new to sailing and am a fair bit off from cruising, but I've been lurking a while and felt the need to chime in (and not so agressively at first, it was the sarcastic "It costs exactly US$2,356.74 per month to go cruising." dismissal that got my hackels up, particularly when combined with an accusation that I am looking for a specific number despite multiple examples of what I was looking for that included generalizations and ranges, as well as a language that would often include "about, to start, to build on, etc")

Originally Posted by Hud3

Have you used the CF Google search to research the topic on this site? There's a lot already written on the topic.

yes, and a lot of it is the same banter of "it can be done with less then $1000 if you know what your doing or need to" vs "that's not enough" and the answer questions with retorical questions dismisals.

Originally Posted by Hud3

You're going to have to come up with the answer for yourself, based on your circumstances and needs, but you really won't know the true cost until you get out there and actually do it.

Obviously. but if I was to move to a new city, I would not (some might, but I wouldn't) just go there and hope I have enough money to survive long enough to get a new job and hope that new job can then pay for the appartement I managed to find with no idea if the rent on it was low, high or average... I would do some research, find out typcal rents in various areas, how basic commodities compare in price vs where I currently live, etc... and depending on how far away that move will start will determine what resources I am willing to spend on that research (I don't think buying a book to plan for a budget that is likely 2-3 years away is needed yet, but asking on a free forum dedicated to the lifestyle is not such a bad idea... or so one would think).

Anyways, I would like to thank you for your two answers, as, combined with SV Third Day's budget, gives me an idea of what the costs can look like (and then I can add my personal expenses such as student loans, any morgage or loan payments, perscription/healthcare costs, specialty food items, specialty equipment/expenses for health/work, etc as well as adjust differences in costs (say my insurance is more then SV's) to it to get something more personal to me. I can then take that number, round up, add a sizable bufferand determine what might be a reasonable budget for me for my first time out (after which I can adjust for personal prefference based on experience).

[Vic de Beer]

I am actually sorry that I started this thread.... I, never in a million years, thought that would stir up the animosity it did.
I thought that, amongst "fellow yachties" I would find a reasonable answer, but instead it has become something I never anticipated.
Asking Yachties that are out there, doing what we can only still dream of, still trying to get to or achieve, can help us with.... a straight forward answer.... a ball park number....but , alas... no such luck.
That is what this forum is for... not so?/ ....wwhere a sailor can ask fellow sailors questions or ask for advice???
For all the information gleaned, for all the help and assistance... this thread may as well be closed and written of.
Those who are not capable of, in a civil manner, or willing.... whatever.... to share with those who are still dreaming of getting to......and asking some assitance with..... thanks for your responses. However I am no further ahead

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Vic de Beer

I am actually sorry that I started this thread.... I, never in a million years, thought that would stir up the animosity it did.

Vic began this thread by stating, in his first sentence, "From reading the threads on this forum, I get a general, kinda felling that: most people that are on this forum must be independently wealth, or have some income other than working for it."

In other words, the insinuation was made that those of us who can afford to cruise on an ample budget "have some income other than working for it."

Hey, Vic, I can afford to cruise on far more than $1,000 per month. This isn't because I inherited money; I did not. Rather, it's because I got a good education, thanks to scholarships I earned by getting good grades, and then I worked my tail off for 35 years as a teacher to put the cruising kitty together. When I'd come home from work after a long day, instead of turning on the TV I'd spend hours at the typewriter composing articles and, ultimately, books. One of those books hit it big enough to purchase a brand-new sailboat that weighs 15 tons and is absolutely gorgeous. It's one of those boats that some "yachties" call "docominiums," but it's huge and fast and comfy and gorgeous, and stock full of all the modern navigational aids that make it possible for people like me to cross oceans.

I resent the implication that those of us who don't have to restrict our cruising budgets have income that we haven't worked for. I, too, regret that you started this thread. I've never posted an opinion on this or any other forum that suggests that people less affluent than myself ought not to be cruising. You, on the other hand, have managed to insinuate that those more affluent than yourself are not worthy of the cruising lifestyle because we must have income that we have not worked for.

Think about this before you start another thread on this forum.