The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

That's a great plan, especialy if you plan to cruise with a wife. Well, my wife anyway.

She manages to double my budget all the time...

(spring boarding off your answer, this is not directed at you specifically...)

The question still remains, where is a reasonable place to start my budget. For example, I know that, if I wanted to ship out (hypothetical situation) in 6 months, I could easily save 1/3 of my paychecks without impacting my lifestyle in any noticeable way. If I tightened my belt, (not eating out often, paying 500% rather then 800% the minimum payment for my student loans, etc) I could save 1/2 my paycheck, and if I really scrimped (eating cheep home meals, only paying minimum student loan payments and then claiming unemployed interest relief come ship off time) I could likely manage saving 2/3rds of my pay... I shouldn't need to tell you what I actually make in order to find out which of these three budget options I should choose for saving to go away.

I really don't think it is such an unreasonable question (though, not having actually lived the life yet, I could be wrong. But I make this assumption by drawing on basic concepts that are applicable regardless of being on land or water) to ask what is a reasonable budget... which is really what people are asking when they ask how much it costs. It's not a lot different then if someone asked me how much it costs to live in Toronto... I could easily say "well, that depends on the lifestyle you intend to live", but that really doesn't help them. I could also say "people have done it on less then $600 a month", but again this doesn't really help without explaining how, including the fact that the people who do so often sleep in hostels or at friends houses to reduce costs, or perhaps rent a room (not apartment) for $350 (which are rare and you need to know where/how to find these).

A more reasonable answer will typically look like "Depends what your looking for, but by renting an apartment in the outskirts, it can be done on about $1300-1500 a month pretty easy. The downtown core is gonna cost you closer to $2-2.5K or more". This example answer obviously makes some basic assumptions, such as, you don't want to live on the street or in a hostel to save on housing expenses, and that you don't have a huge budget to blow (because really, if I had some huge budget, I really wouldn't need to know about how much it typically costs, It would be unlikely I couldn't afford it). It also leaves the person to determine for themselves the cost of their lifestyle habits (the "it can be done..." implies that eating out every night and movies twice a week are not included in this budget, but rather, typical expenses such as rent, food and utilities mostly, with some comfort ("pretty easy") accounted for only). In the same manner, when someone asks what it typically costs, they are likely not looking for how to live like a water hobo budgets, nor are they so well off that it really doesn't matter to ask ($10K/month), they are generally looking for a comfortable low end range upon which they can build to personal taste. To this point, that question may have very well been answered by the $1000/month provided early in this thread, but the bickering has made that number confusing, as I personally am not sure if thats a low end comfortable budget, or some "it can be done on as little as..." water hobo budget that require finding those low cost gem locations and significant personal sacrifices to accomplish.

I think so far, the most helpful post in this thread towards answering that question has been SV Third Day (post #11) which offers their budget, as it shows some common expenses (Groceries, sundries, insurance), but also shows some pleasure/entertainment expenses, and shows how quickly the small things can add up and how random the unexpected boat costs can build. (thank you for that BTW. I have saved it in my folder as a sample for personal planning, though I'm currious what months were spent where (US... other) and the size/age of your boat (can't see it in your profile)?)

Sorry if I seem hostile, it's just these threads always seem to degenerate into a series of "It depends" and "I've seen it done for as little as ...", nether of which are particularly helpful to the average person looking to learn more about something they don't have the experience to determine for themselves yet. It's like if my 16 year old son (if I had one) came to me and said, "I want to buy a car, how much am I gonna have to save up?"... If I answered "depends what kind of car you want, such as new or used, size, fuel economy, number of doors, brand, etc etc etc..." but don't actually give him an idea of actual prices, he's gonna walk away frustrated, having had to listen to me ramble on and still not have an idea on how much he needs to save up (just that, not only is price a consideration, but now there is a ton more to think about too ( and the truth of the matter is, once he understands about the cost, it's going to eliminate most of those options anyways... at least for a 16 year old buying his first car (after which, he will have gained some personal experience needed to make further car purchases))). he still could be thinking "oh cool, I want a Hummer"... because I have yet to give him any indication of the value of a vehicle. Had I answered, "depends what kind of car, but you can get a used one for around $2K, and some of the low cost hatchbacks can be bought for $10K", even though he still has all those other things to consider, I would have given him far more information towards his goal of buying a car then mentioning all the options and bells and whistles he can buy as options, largely because I have answered his question rather then piling on more questions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Vic de Beer

From reading the threads on this forum, I get a general, kinda felling that: most people that are on this forum must be independently wealth, or have some income other than working for it.
Judging by the responses to questions, if one should take an average, one would require an annual income that would sustain a lifestyle onshore.
Whatever happened to the "sailing on a shoestring" that so many sailors have written about.... working your way around and at the same time ejoy life...?
I was once asked by a couple, while at anchor in the Bight at Norman Island: what does it cost to go cruising? before I could answer, they then started elaborating on stuff like:
how do you account for airfare home once per year, (sometimes more often ie. Christmas, Thanks giving...etc). Haulout and storage of your boat while home, renting a car while at home, etc etc.
I was flabbergasted as I had a very small kitty and relied on finding odd jobs wherever I went, buying produce and fruiit at local markets, fishing over the side for a fish supper...... careened the boat when it needed new bottom paint.....
I lived that life on a 30ft sailboat, with a wife and child, for many years and, should I choose to, could write a pretty good book on the experience, but I said to myself when I left South Africa, many years ago: I want to be the first person to sail around the world and NOT write a book about it.
Now, as I read this forum, I see that there is still the same number of dreamers who would love to take on the trip of a lifetime, but if I had to go by some of the stories and advice from this forum, most likely would never be able to afford it......
To all those dreamers out there..... you can move a mountain, it just depends on how badly you want to move it.....

Just to add my two cents worth

The phrase "independently wealthy" covers a lot of ground, from a well-managed social security pension to a billion dollar trust fund, and everything in between.

You can't set off to sea just for fun, without having some means of existence which does not require working every day. Some people no doubt work for a while, then live for a while, but most people here have some way of living without working. Most of them are simply retired. How "independently wealthy" you have to be depends on your lifestyle and needs. I bet there are people cruising for less than a grand a month, probably a lot of them. I can't imagine it, but I am certain that it is possible. Ten or thirty thousand dollars a month can be spent a lot easier than you might think. I guess most people are somewhere in between.

[Vic de Beer]

Mark.
Please go back and read my post on : 07-10-2009, 11.54.....
I am responding to exactly what I was hoping not to read here. I can, from the way the postings are heading, that exactly that, which I was refering to seems to more of a reality than anticipated.


Originally Posted by Vic de Beer
Seems like my feeling of "cliques" of those ... shall we say.... more affluent cruisers.... is not totally unfounded.


Are you not acknowledging the fact that they exist by your statement:

the people who judge because of a persons worth "oh, you are richer than me" or visaversa can go F@#$% themselves as they are wankers
So, as for being a "wanker"..... are you maybe showing which side of the line you are really on??
I am asking the question and you are confirming it!!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Vic de Beer

Mark.
Please go back and read my post on : 07-10-2009,

Nah. I'm not going to read it or more crap about it. Go crusing. Go on! Go! You will find it wonderful.




I have gone cruisng and do enjoy it and the vast, vast majority of people I meet.

Theres just a few people on here, the forum that I really enjoy, who really have very negative attitudes. Those, all, have never been out there.

A person can write you 1,000 lines of good advice, and like those others, you will only see what you have preconceived you want to see.

Go cruising. Go now. You might actually begin to enjoy your life and the others around you.


Mark

[Vic de Beer]

Mark,
I have been cruising (spent 8 years out on the ocean) and would like to go again, hence the original question as to the costs involved.
After determining that the costs are around $1000.00/month, I am seriously considering going again.
However, from the drift that I get from reading these posts, there are areas that one, who is cruising on a budget of $1000.00/m should avoid, as the costs for being there, could increase to way more than your budget may allow, and, as you are most likely aware, once you've arrived, it is not always easy to just up-anchor and leave again.
So,to get to the point I was trying to make, prior to being called a "wanker".... :
There seem to be areas where the cost of living is controlled by those who have set the standard, and maintains it from their airconditioned.... whatever ..............That is my comment....: That these areas seem to exist....and they are being controlled..... nothing more, nothing less

[Vic de Beer]

Thanks bobfnbw..... my point exactly...

[bobfnbw]

Seriously, both of you.. lighten up please.
Sure there are cliques in life, and affluent people with their nose out of joint, and poor people that make a moorage into a slum... and for the rest of us, just normal people trying to get by, have some fun, and be there for others when they need help.
All kinds of people in cruising, like in real life as well. Hell even the bad guys love their mothers, or kids or dog or something, and even the good guys loose their temper, and have fits, and secret opinions and agendas. Its called life.
The original poster asked a question about the cost of cruising, not about who is a wanker or in a clique. Get over it.

[osirissail]

Actually. Vic de Beer, brings up a very valid distinction in the costs of cruising. As on land when a particular place becomes a "tourist magnet" or on water - "a major cruising destination/way stop" the prices of escalate - sometimes significantly.
- - The Bahamas is a good example, especially Georgetown, Exumas. 20 years ago maybe a dozen or two boats would stop waiting for a weather window for heading further down island. A beach bar, a little town with one grocery store, a smattering of little mom & pop stores were about all that was there. Fast forward to 2004-5 and now over 400 boats stop there. You will find a major cruising regatta; the grocery store is not charging US$10/6 oz bottle of A-1 sauce and other prices double or more; Mega T-shirt shops, Tiki bars and hotels, fancy dinghy dock (although one major improvement - free R.O. water) and officials sweeping the anchorages looking for boat that did not pay their US$300 (35' or over boats.) It used to be under $100 15 years ago.
- Other major stopping points all down the Caribbean island chain have experienced exactly the same situation due simply to major multiples of numbers of boats now stopping versus 20years ago. But that's life, there is no way to reverse time.
- So where can low budget cruisers stop and enjoy the place for "old fashioned" costs? I would say - Dominican Republic; Viegues; St Croix; ??Nevis??; Dominica; St Vincent and sort of - Carriacou/Grenada. Basically the islands that have major local agriculture to support their population or are "out of the way" from the main super-highway of boats heading down island.
- - Anybody else have real low-cost island stops? High cost ones?
- - The "sort of" or marginal places have a dual economy, one low priced for natives and the other high priced for tourist/visitors. If you can find out where to buy and how to get around like a native, the costs drop steeply.
- - Another technique to keeping costs down is to "stock up" in the low costs islands and then when visiting the "high costs" islands, live off your supplies and avoid the "candy parts of their tourist/visitor economy." I love to visit giant shopping malls and "window shop". The beauty of living on a boat is the lack of space for "extra stuff" - so you can look and oogle but you cannot buy. Great entertainment and free.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by osirissail

The beauty of living on a boat is the lack of space for "extra stuff" - so you can look and oogle but you cannot buy. Great entertainment and free.

This is why I'm putting a lot of investment in staying independent of the shore (solid ground tackle and plenty of it, self-sufficient in power, water, and plenty of stowage for provisions).

It is "the shore" that is the enemy of cruiser budgets. Due to proximity and convenience (not always the same thing), and combined with the habit of cruisers to endorse particular spots, some islands develop quite extensive and expensive "service industries" adjacent to the customary anchorages.

And then they charge an arm, a leg and a testicle for the privilege.

Frequently, this reflects not only price-gouging, but the real price to the locals of shipping what to them are North American luxury items to some tiny, distant, and usually poor island.

If you go from the anchorage, however, and past the "shore", and go inland or to the other, less developed part of the island, you can get food and drink at what the locals pay (or close to it). You may not recognize the labels (if there even is one), but if you insist on Doritos and a Bud at every place you stop, then maybe cruising wasn't the best choice.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

. . . It is "the shore" that is the enemy of cruiser budgets. Due to proximity and convenience (not always the same thing), and combined with the habit of cruisers to endorse particular spots, some islands develop quite extensive and expensive "service industries" adjacent to the customary anchorages.
Frequently, this reflects not only price-gouging, but the real price to the locals of shipping what to them are North American luxury items to some tiny, distant, and usually poor island.
. . . . You may not recognize the labels (if there even is one), but if you insist on Doritos and a Bud at every place you stop, then maybe cruising wasn't the best choice.

- - As to the shore being the enemy - I would not agree - anymore than I would blames guns for killing people. We cruise to experience and explore the "shores" of the islands or continents and the people who live there. Otherwise we might as well stay in our home waters and sail in circles.
- - As I have discussed before there are some roughly 3 categories of folks out cruising- and each group has different needs and perceptions. Some definitely want the Doritos and Bud -light- at each island. Absolutely nothing wrong with that as in everywhere in the world the population is constantly growing - for some unknown reason . As the population grows up they need jobs and money so they can make more population. Those Buds and Doritas are providing the jobs and money. Otherwise they may be forced to liberate our money without providing goods or services. So I would suggest that those folks into the Buds and Doritos may be doing us a favor.
- - As to "price gouging" I hesitate to invoke that phrase as this is a "capitalistic" world, not a socialistic world. The locals will charge "what the traffic will bear" which is a first princi

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- Other major stopping points all down the Caribbean island chain have experienced exactly the same situation due simply to major multiples of numbers of boats now stopping versus 20years ago. But that's life, there is no way to reverse time.

I think what Mark may be taking offense to is the implied accusation that it is the affluent, air conditioned boats with washing machines that are causing these increases in prices, rather then simply increased traffic and natural inflation (... as well as the implication that these wealthy boaters don't care so much for the "real" boating lifestyle and instead want a "condo" lifestyle on a boat...Which, I should point out, is Vic establishing a clique in and of itself, such as, but opposite to, what he is complaining about (Bigotry is not limited to wealthy, white, males. Contrary to popular belief)).

As to the actual costs of boating, I see many people stating it can cost a lot and that nickle and dime stuff adds up quickly, only to get jumped on by people stating it can be done for cheep (and to be fair, I see equally, people jump on those who say "it can do it on the cheep"). What my problem has been is that, very few people actually acknowledge that to live on the cheep requires a degree of experience and knowledge (a concept that is not limited to being on the water). For example, I could live in a number of small towns in PEI/newfoundland or similar areas for $900 or less quite easily. I can live in Toronto for the same amount of money, but only because I am familiar with the city and have connections and know how to find cheep shelter/furniture and know good places to shop for cheep food, etc. Could I then move to another major city and live on that budget? not likely. Could someone else come to Toronto and live on that budget? again, not likely. So, when someone asks (and thus demonstrates a lack of the knowledge/experience needed to live the lifestyle) how much it costs to live aboard, saying it can be done for $1000/month or less is one thing, but not helping them to know how to do so (such as places to go/avoid to reduce anchorage costs), nor acknowledging that the costs can quickly mount up and overwhelm people is only encouraging them to fail.

What I have learned from these threads has been, when I finally start out, I will establish a budget, but I will have the funds available to double that budget, thus, if I fail to meet that budget, I will not be left short, and if I succeed, I will double my sail time (or simply return with next years budget already saved).

[John A]

osirissail,

Well said, thank you! I'll not tell of my favorite ports in the fear that they will not remain so. There are many stops throughout the Bahamas, that were a delight, as were stops on the west and south of Puerto Rico.
The Virgin islands, which are full of bare boat charters, hellbent on spending $5000 for ten days of forced enjoyment, are no longer fun.
St. Barths. While there I was charged $35 a day to anchor a 15 minute dinghy ride from the docks. A lunch of a salad, two beers and ice cream came to a total of $52 US! But watching the rich and famous celebrate New Years Eve, to mingle with them to enjoy Jimmy Buffet for free was, to this scruffy singlehandler, worth it.
The really great thing about the whole cruising experience is that if you're not happy where you are, pick up your anchor and go somewhere else.
regards John A

[Don Lucas]

OK, lets back to the orginal question because this is starting to turn me off and crush my plans/dreams. How much does it Cost!!!! Not how much it might if this, if that! Lots of posters here are/have been out there. What did it cost YOU and where did you go, what was the basic lifetsyle of your trip. Fess up now it doesn't which group of spender you fall into. Hell I hope you got to be the high spender. Mark you're cruising and proud of your 30 years of work life, so what's you answer (not picking on Mark). Given that you can eat almost anything with enough kethup/salsa, I need to determine if I will be able to buy kethup/salsa for my store brand dogfood :-)

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

OK, lets back to the orginal question because this is starting to turn me off and crush my plans/dreams. How much does it Cost!!!! Not how much it might if this, if that! Lots of posters here are/have been out there. What did it cost YOU ...

It cost me $1.50/hour to cruise the Bahamas.

[rusky]

Hey, did I hear my name mentioned.
Surfingwinny - just wait 2 months and you will see.

You will need to forget about all the BS before you get across the BS. Also I want to see a photo of you surfing the bow wave.