The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[wildshore]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - Actually, Yes! Even sometimes - Free! In Florida, especially south Florida there are many 30-footers and smaller sailboats that you can acquire anywhere from free to about what you asked. They are boats that are either abandoned - in which case you contact the Sheriff in the locality of the boat and get a Sheriff's sale title change to your name which costs less than $500 dollars; or you find a suitable grime covered boat in a marina slip or seawall or dock in the Florida Keys or elsewhere and find the owner. The boats will sometimes have For Sale signs on them, although some marinas prohibit displaying any such signs. Then you contact the owner and he will give you the boat just to be able to stop paying marina fees which are not cheap in Florida.
- - I have a few young friends in Florida who make their living harvesting these "abandoned" boats, spending a grand to refurbish them and then take them to New England in the Spring and sell them for 10's of thousands of dollars.

I picked up my current boat from woodenboatrescue.org for nothing, will do a bit of work, and have a lovely classic vessel to sail in. There are all sorts of opportunities out there. There are still unclaimed vessels in the New Orleans area from Katrina for the taking according to a friend of mine in Layfayette.

[dpex]

Originally Posted by positron

I had an uncle who did decades of subsistence sailing around Australia. My girl friend and I were hoping in following in his footsteps as we both have strong sailing background and the desire to leave the office behind, but to tell you the truth I don't think it is possible anymore. We are both in our early 30's and have worked our asses off to amass about $120KAUD for a boat, but I can't see it ever happening. The more I read here, the more disillusioned I get. It apears that only multimillionaires like MarkJ are able to do it. I guess times have changed and was I born about 20years late. There are to many government restraints now.

Yours is an interesting (to me, anyway) post. I guess it got me thinking about the actual nature of cruising the world.

It seems to me there are two types of cruising. The one is simply cruising along with no specific destination or ETA. While the other is cruising to places for sight-seeing, etc. So I guess I could describe the former as just a cruiser, and the latter as a tourist making their own way to sundry destinations.

So the former, perhaps not particularly interested in seeing the sights, could cruise aimlessly around the world without wishing to touch dry-land for long periods of time. There they are in their mobile home, just cruising, filling in the days as they choose and without any particular purpose other the attaining the simple joy of cruising through the myriad environments nature throws out on a daily basis.

Of this type there will be some; perhaps even many, who will choose to break into the daily routine, find a port and stop off and maybe get one or more cash-paying jobs for a period; mostly for the break in routine, but also to add a bit back to the coffers.

Somewhere above here (this post) a contributor seems to scoff at being paid US$20 a day to polish boats. But it's not just the income which is the issue. While polishing, or living aboard in the area, one would come into contact with myriad interesting folk and even opportunities. But hey! US$20 is US$100 a week. That would buy me food and supplies for another 10 days at sea.

And you never know. I might just luck into saving the first son of the Crown Prince of somewhere from drowning, or being eaten by a big yellow dog. You know what I mean? That's the opportunities thing.

But, inevitably, the itch to leave land behind will return and the aimless cruiser will be off. This type of cruising, assuming you keep natural challenges to your boat to the minimum, and live a relatively Spartan, yet comfortable life, can be extremely cheap.

Yet those who are cut out for this sort of life are few. Typically they will be loners (either individuals or couples) whose interest in contact with other humans is extremely limited. Such folk will be perhaps aware that the human body is but a vehicle for the human brain, and that their entirety is, in fact, lodged in their brain and thus lack the need of external (read fabricated) existence.

Not so for the destination cruiser who wishes to see all the sights. They will want to go to many of the flash destinations accompanied by the flash costs.

Whereas the aimless cruiser sees life as "being here/now, doing this", the tourist cruiser needs the "been there, done that" stimulus.

I guess age will have a lot to do with determining the type. Younger folk tend to 'need' to achieve, whereas us older flogs have "been there, done that" can see no more purpose for existence than simply that it's a better alternative to not existing.

I am certainly of the aimless cruiser persuasion. I enjoy my own company (saves a lot of arguing) and am perfectly happy to have zero contact with others for quite extended periods.

Setting aside boat costs my daily needs while aboard amount to a cost of less than $10.

And like another contributor above asserted, I prefer to careen after leaping over the side and scrubbing her ladyships bum. Then antifouling one side, then going through the whole process on the next tide to antifoul the other.

The process can take two whole days. Gee! I'm glad I don't have to be anywhere soon! :--))

Whereas the tourist cruiser hasn't, or doesn't want to take the time. Thus they have to pay shore charges for so many things.

Remember the days of early discovery, when sailing vessels put to sea for like 9 months at a time. They couldn't buy what they needed. They made do with whatever came to hand. But they had a purpose....To discover.

These days one can 'discover' everything right here in front of a PC except....

Why one really exists. For me it's the little things, like sitting on Point Nemo watching Al Pachino's version of The Merchant Of Venice. Weird, eh!? But it just rips my copy book to think of being 2,688 NM from everywhere while watching one of the world's greatest actors repeat, with such skill, the vision Shakespeare saw as he wrote.

I think the aimless cruiser is more likely to discover the answer to that incredibly complex question way more quickly than the tourist cruiser, and do so very cheaply.

That was a long dissertation. But I hope it helps a few.

[rover88]

Originally Posted by positron

I had an uncle who did decades of subsistence sailing around Australia. My girl friend and I were hoping in following in his footsteps as we both have strong sailing background and the desire to leave the office behind, but to tell you the truth I don't think it is possible anymore. We are both in our early 30's and have worked our asses off to amass about $120KAUD for a boat, but I can't see it ever happening. The more I read here, the more disillusioned I get. It apears that only multimillionaires like MarkJ are able to do it. I guess times have changed and was I born about 20years late. There are to many government restraints now.

Positron, I know how you feel and it is easy to get discouraged, but don’t sell your dream short just yet. True, we live in an age of burdensome bureaucracy and governments of all stripes breathing down our necks – all with their hands deep in our pockets – but 20 years from now it will be a lot worse.

Today is a far cry from the1890s, when Joshua Slocum set out on a small boat and smaller budget and sailed the world with impunity. Yet there are still relatively unspoiled places to go and some semblance of personal freedom left at sea. The adventure these days is to find those places and that freedom. You can do it on a 28 foot boat and if need be, a minimal budget.

If your desire is strong enough you’ll find a way. If you sabotage yourself with a defeatist attitude now, you best stay home. So cowboy up, make a plan and bust your rump to fulfill your dream. The alternative is give up and live a dismal life filled with regrets.

Go buy a $20k boat and carefully sail on the rest until it runs out.

Life is not an hour-glass, and once the sand is gone from the top, there aint no turning it over.

[osirissail]

>>>DPEX - - It seems to me there are two types of cruising. The one is simply cruising along with no specific destination or ETA. While the other is cruising to places for sight-seeing, etc.<<<<
>>>>Rover88 - - Today is a far cry from the1890s, when Joshua Slocum set out on a small boat and smaller budget and sailed the world with impunity. Yet there are still relatively unspoiled places to go and some semblance of personal freedom left at sea.<<<

I would submit that there are three types of sailing experiences: 1- Day sailing around local waters including those with "trailer-sailor" that drive to interesting places and then sail around them - but both for only a day or weekend.
- - 2. Coastal cruisers who maybe go out for a week or two or so but stay inside their home country's boundaries.
- - 3. World cruisers who head out for a "season" or a year or two or more and explore all the places they have an interest in seeing.
- - The aimless "wanderer" is not realistic anymore as is the movie-famous "walk-about" chap in the interior of Aussieland. Even these folks now have a "destination" and have to make plans and provide for their existence while away from normal sources of supplies and get permits for national parks, etc.
- - The "romance" of the "wanderer/explorer" in film and literature is alluring but doesn't exist in today's world. As Rover88 mentions - bureaucracy (politics) has finally managed to blanket the whole earth with rules, regulations, approvals, prior notification, and positive individual identity checking - anywhere and everywhere you stop and encounter "officials." Welcome to the 21st century modern world
- - Cruising/sailing groups #1 & #2 can come the closest to the "wanderer/walk-about" but still have to be able, willing to take care of the little details, and have financial resources to feed themselves and maintain their vessels to the local "bureaucratically decreed" standards and pay the "fees" for the privilege of stopping a particular location. Even the "wild" areas have park fees, fishing licenses or whatever that must be paid. ... A big name "wild place" - Galapagos Islands costs around US$500 to visit with your boat and see the wild creatures.
- - Group #3 is the expensive group not only from being able to stock and store and maintain your vessel to various jurisdictional imposed "standards" but also to clear in and out which can range from the Galapagos' fee to the Bahamas US$300 to $100 +/- in some Caribbean islands on down to $20+/- in most Caribbean Islands. Jump to the Pacific and you have the many thousands of dollars (depending upon your home country) "bond" in French Polynesia. I would hazard a guess that to avoid any place which requires you to have a significant financial background - you would have to sail non-stop across the whole 8000 nm of the Pacific (assuming you did not stop "illegally" at some country or other's unpopulated atolls/islands).
- - But do not get discouraged - if you can afford to live on land in a house/apartment, own a car, and have had a job - you can cruise as "free" as your lifestyle (and the bureaucrats) will permit you. There are just some "little details" that you need to take care of that are now added into your adventure. They are annoying but not onerous anymore than traffic lights, parking meters, zoning boards, condo committees and the hundreds of other little requirements of life in the modern world.
- - So, Yes, you can wander around your country by boat or even the world - it is just that the definition of "wander" has changed to include taking care of the details and requirements of the modern world.

[rover88]

As to the issue of the bureaucracy and our modern police state mentality, sadly the “war on drugs” and now “war on terror” have contributed to almost fulfilling the prophecy of George Orwell’s “1984”. Ironic how we Americans (and others) fought countless real wars over the past centuries in the name of “freedom” to now find ourselves less free than in any time in our history.

As to costs, somewhere on this or another thread someone did a comparison of costs between cruising today versus twenty years ago. If I’m not mistaken, factoring inflation, the costs were not that far apart. For those of us in boats under 35’, a cruising permit for the Bahamas is $150 for six months – about the same as driving my gas hog once from my home in Georgia to my boat in Florida and less than few meals for two in a mediocre restaurant. And the Bahamian permit includes a fishing license to boot!!

Mexico down to Columbia, immigration and other fees are not onerous and there are some wild and beautiful places along both coasts of Central America. Fact is, one could spend several years cruising the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico and not experience a fraction of what is there to see and do. Not a single six-month cruising permit anywhere in the Caribbean or Central America exceeds the monthly rent on a two bedroom flat in any modern city.

Adventure does not have to be just about physical places and discovering un-chartered territory. The wild places are in fact long discovered and even the deep dark Amazon basin is now full of packaged tourists. Rather, the adventure is in the lifestyle – meeting interesting people, experiencing different cultures, testing your own resilience, resolve and wits.

Even in this new millennium, the adventures are still out there and it’s worth seeking them. The alternative is to slowly kill your brain and spirit sitting in front of that flat panel television for the rest of your life.

[Curmudgeon]

Great post Rover 88.

There is an article by the Pardeys in the current issue of water sailing">Blue Water Sailing. They concluded that, when they didn't have much money, cruising was cheap. When they were flush, it became more expensive.

[waverider]

Wow! 17 pages of comments. Great Post, Great Story's, Great Advice on both sides. I think it comes down to NIKE's saying:

JUST DO IT!

Now, saying that, I plan on taking my own advice. If I can only find away for my 16 year old to take school over the internet with a high school diploma that will count for something, perhaps that is another thread.

Cheers

Todd

[rover88]

Todd, as my frequent posts on this subject reveal, it's one that holds particular interest to me. From my experiences in Latin America and through the many expats I met educating their children through correspondence courses, there are many good programs for distant learning available through accredited programs in the US.

The expat kids I met were so far ahead of their traditionally schooled peers that I was always astounded. Give your daughter an education far beyond the classroom and she will probably grumble at first, but heap thanks on you in later years. Good luck!!

[sailorboy1]

I have been planning that crusiing was going to cost between $1500-2000US.

I have a spread/budget that I use mainly for planning around how much each month I can put into savings to feed the cruising kitty. The other day I took out all the land based costs (rent, car, etc) out, but kept the current boat payment (that I plan to have paid off before leaving) and my kept current boat mooring/storage costs. It was interesting that the monthly spend then came to just under $2000/month. So to me this is what I should expect to spend on average.

[Hampus]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

$2000/month.

Boating seems expensive in USA. We pay $2000/year here in Sweden for mooring and insurance for our 41 ft (50 ft LOA) ketch. And out mooring is expensive. There is absolutely NO way we could afford $2000/month... That didn't include maintenance? What kind of boat is it?

/Hampus

[sailorboy1]

Between my mooring during the season, haul-out and storage during the winter, and insurance my Cal-39 is about $5000/yr.

The $2000/mo figure is what I am kind of planning for costs while cruising.

[Hampus]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Between my mooring during the season, haul-out and storage during the winter, and insurance my Cal-39 is about $5000/yr.

The $2000/mo figure is what I am kind of planning for costs while cruising.

Oh, Sorry, misread your post. $5000 / year is not too bad.

/Hampus

[waverider]

I think if you budget $ 2000.00/m that you will live a nice lifestyle while cruising. We are taking our boat south for a winter, maybe longer if we find a place to call home. And I am stuck between two lines of attack on this, we can sail straight Nova Scotia to the Carribean and save money. Or we can take the ICW, longer trip and more expenses. However, we will meet people make friends, see historic points of interest and have a easier sail.

More time at Sea means less expense, More time coastal means more expenses but more experenices.

I think maybe a nice balance of the two is in order.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by rover88

As to costs, <snip>For those of us in boats under 35’, a cruising permit for the Bahamas is $150 for six months – about the same as driving my gas hog once from my home in Georgia to my boat in Florida and less than few meals for two in a mediocre restaurant.

Originally Posted by osirissail

A big name "wild place" - Galapagos Islands costs around US$500 to visit with your boat and see the wild creatures. <snip>
- - Group #3 is the expensive group not only from being able to stock and store and maintain your vessel to various jurisdictional imposed "standards" but also to clear in and out which can range from the Galapagos' fee to the Bahamas US$300 to $100 +/- in some Caribbean islands on down to $20+/- in most Caribbean Islands. Jump to the Pacific and you have the many thousands of dollars (depending upon your home country) "bond" in French Polynesia. I would hazard a guess that to avoid any place which requires you to have a significant financial background - you would have to sail non-stop across the whole 8000 nm of the Pacific (assuming you did not stop "illegally" at some country or other's unpopulated atolls/islands).

The point here is that if you follow the crowds you will likely pay. Go where no one goes and you can likely go for free.

In fact the fewer boats there are moored in the bay the more likely you are to see the wild life.

[wannabesailor]

I am more interested in the Annual Costs of owning and maintaining a sailboat.
I am thinking mooring, insurance, maintenance , in/out fees etc.
I live in Toronto area. I would sail on Lake Ontario and keep my boat near downtown Toronto