The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by jm21

but then your wife has it and leaves ..

So not all the news is bad!

I gotta make sure Nicolle don't read this...

[creakyboy]

ok before anyone gets offended please be aware that when i use the word 'rich' it is with no 'evil' connatations.

before i started cruising i'll admit i was prejudiced against those with more apparent wealth than i,but once i got 'out there' i realized (and was pleasantly suprised by the fact) that the cruisers in boats worth ten times what mine is worth,are just as friendly as people in 'budget' boats.

Some of the cruising costs may not be in the same league ie. maintenence (sp? too many rums tonight hehe) however overall it doesn't really matter when You pull into a nice anchorage most if not all enjoy the experience the same.

oh an everyone has the same probs with windage on their straw hats

$1000 per month may well be not nearly enough for some and for others it may be enough but I'm glad this thread has calmed down from ppl taking offence so that costs can be discussed in a calm manner,as I'd like to learn more about costs that are universal ie: entry fees,visa fees etc
assuming that entry fees are not based on boat size (?)

Another thing I am curious about is the availability of "free anchorages" etc as paying marina fees is something that would eat into just about any budget i would imagine,here in Qld Australia I'm able to anchor wherever i can find a spot for free,but is that the case elsewhere (specifically Europe/France/Med)? oh and places along the way to Europe?(from Aus)

[osirissail]

In the Caribbean, after checking in/out which varies from free in the French Islands to $300 in the Bahamas, and eliminating those two, I would estimate the average fees to be in the US$30 range +/- $10.
- - Free anchorages are disappearing as countries install mandatory mooring fields and or locals are preying on boats driving us to "herd" anchorages. Some island countries charge "harbor fees" if you anchor. Other free anchorages do not have free shore access and you must pay for dinghy dock privileges (e.g. Trinidad's TTSA anchorage.) Still the vast majority of anchorages are still free and shore access is free but the number of "not-free" anchorages is growing.
- - Boat costs are directly related to where and when you sail. The rougher the waters the more "pounding" the boat takes and more things move and break. Obviously, staying in calm protected waters is the lowest cost for "wear and tear" costs. But crashing and bashing eastward from places like the Bahamas to St Martin really stresses the boat as much or more than the crew. Sailing the windward sides of islands is dramatic fun in normal moderate seas, but each time the boat pitches and rolls shock loads are wearing away at the rigging and hull. Sail and power yachts hulls, twist and flex constantly when underway opening up seams and breaking loose bedded parts.
- - The whole idea of "cruising" is to go to places and enjoy the new environments. It is the "getting there" that will cause costs to rise. The more "getting there" you do the more wear and tear on the vessel. And do not forget - not going here and there - also eats away at the vessel as tropical UV dissolves canvas, lines, cooks bedding compounds and chalks your fiberglass and paint. Not running a diesel to keep its fluids moving also increases wear and probable breakdowns. I use the analogy of a "space shuttle" - we are self contained vehicles moving through a hostile environment, beautiful but still hostile. And unless you really do preventive maintenance little things become big expensive things.
- - The key to minimal maintenance costs is minimal equipment on board. For the basic "old-way" boat you have rigging, hull and sails to worry about. Add an engine or two and things to repair increases. Add creature comforts inside or topside and then vessel maintenance costs really start to escalate.
- - The cheapest way to live on a boat is never go anywhere, just live on the boat as a homeless person would live under his cardboard in the park or underpass. But if you go cruising, boat costs increase directly with boat age, where you are cruising, and how often you want to move. And ultimately how much you move is driven also by seasonal weather conditions unless you want to put your boat in very expensive hurricane rated boatyards.

[Lady Circumnavi]

In considering the costs of crossing an ocean vs. near home coastal cruising, most of the at -sea expenses come from wear and tear on your sails. But cruising sails are made to take it, and you don't push your boat like you might during a race or coastal cruising. In a four and a half year circumnavigation, a #4 headsail blew out in a gale off Port Elizabeth, South Africa, a prop shaft broke leaving Darwin, and we replaced our rigging in Tahiti. (Out boat was 16 years old when we left.) That's not much wear and tear expense for equipment/ maintenance.

We did convert to all chain rode in Tahiti and bought a better dinghy in Australia and installed a windvane and solar panels along the way. These were upgrades we probably should have made before leaving. Haulouts against a careening grid or on a sloping beach in remote places cost nothing but the cost of bottom paint.

My cruising philosophy was to visit remote places only accessable by boat, and to travel simply and with self reliance. In those places, there's nothing to spend money on. Expenses add up when to drop back into civilization. They also add up as your boat becomes more complicated: refrigeration, electronics, extra heads.

Another note to an earlier post, we averaged ten days in port for every day at sea. Many people travel at an even more leisurely pace than we did; a few, like Webb Chiles, reverse that ratio.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by positron

I had an uncle who did decades of subsistence sailing around Australia. My girl friend and I were hoping in following in his footsteps as we both have strong sailing background and the desire to leave the office behind, but to tell you the truth I don't think it is possible anymore. We are both in our early 30's and have worked our asses off to amass about $120KAUD for a boat, but I can't see it ever happening. The more I read here, the more disillusioned I get. It apears that only multimillionaires like MarkJ are able to do it. I guess times have changed and was I born about 20years late. There are to many government restraints now.

No way man. The only people typing on this forum are people who are not:

a) currently doing their own work
b) currently underway

Not saying that no one on here does either, but the more work you do on your own boat, and the more underway time you have, the less you're going to be on a message board talking about it.

I've been killing myself redoing my teak decks and cabin top all summer. I probably spent $700 in total for supplies; would have easily cost me $20K to have someone else do the work.

I had my entire rig replaced for a couple grand; should have been more like $15K.

Don't let arm chair admirals get you down.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Lady Circumnavi

In considering the costs of crossing an ocean vs. near home coastal cruising, most of the at -sea expenses come from wear and tear on your sails. But cruising sails are made to take it, and you don't push your boat like you might during a race or coastal cruising. In a four and a half year circumnavigation, a #4 headsail blew out in a gale off Port Elizabeth, South Africa, a prop shaft broke leaving Darwin, and we replaced our rigging in Tahiti. (Out boat was 16 years old when we left.) That's not much wear and tear expense for equipment/ maintenance.

We did convert to all chain rode in Tahiti and bought a better dinghy in Australia and installed a windvane and solar panels along the way. These were upgrades we probably should have made before leaving. Haulouts against a careening grid or on a sloping beach in remote places cost nothing but the cost of bottom paint.

My cruising philosophy was to visit remote places only accessable by boat, and to travel simply and with self reliance. In those places, there's nothing to spend money on. Expenses add up when to drop back into civilization. They also add up as your boat becomes more complicated: refrigeration, electronics, extra heads.

Another note to an earlier post, we averaged ten days in port for every day at sea. Many people travel at an even more leisurely pace than we did; a few, like Webb Chiles, reverse that ratio.

We think much along the same lines, except that I'm in prep stage and you've done it. Thanks for the post.

[bobfnbw]

This is how I have been factoring it all in.
Of course I may be wrong, and have underestimated things, but I won't know that for some time.

Cost of boat 65K
refit of boat 65K
total 130K

Monthly budget
Food 800
fuel 270
alcohol 100 yeah a necessity
maintenance 250
insurance 800
Major refit expense 250 for major items every 5 years 15K
clothing 100
entertainment 100
dining out 500
travel fund 500
total 3670/month or 44000/year in USD

paid for by social security checks of ~3000/month
balence needed from savings 670/month or 8000 year
for a 20 year cruise.... 160000 needed, not counting growth of principal.
I will have a large fund to draw off of for emergencies.

Boat will be paid off, and completly ready to go, with 600 watts of solar,
genset, wind, large fuel tankage, all spares on board including sewing machine for repair work and possible extra cash for small jobs.
new refrigeration, new sails, new rigging etc. Boat will be ready to cruise.
Every 5 years I plan to do a major refit of around 15000, including sails, dinghy, etc. All work done by me.
Now if there is not ssi available when I retire in 11 years, and if insurance cost soar... then things may be a lot different.

Plan to spend 3-5yrs in the carib, then off to med for 2, then aus, and NZ, then south pacific, then who knows where.....
In the meantime, our boat is being redone masthead to thru hulls.
We will be ready.

[rusky]

Dear Bob,
You will cruise like a king on that budget - in fact it will rule you. You will find that you dont or cant use anywhere that amount unless you really try to! We live off the rental less expenses (inc mortgage repayments) from our house.

K.I.S.S = keep it simple,silly (actually replace silly for stupid, but thats only referring to myself!)

[John A]

I can only add, as one who after nine years cruising, is on the other end of the cruising experience. And from observeing many different cruisers from many countries.
GO NOW!
Take whatever you have and leave! An incredibale experience awaits you.
I know we've all been schooled to live a structured life, that if we do X then Y is sure to follow. But somewhere, somehow you've got to draw a line through the want/do list and just go. Throw the damned Gant Chart in the trash!

The "it depends" part is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the whole adventure.

The whole adventure is about choices. You choose to do something and accept the responsiblity for the outcome. What a great concept!

Please, GO NOW, as we grow older, health issues are lurking. The body is like an ageing Perkins 4-108. Replacement parts are hard to find.

Don't wait until all the ducks are in a row! Stop dithering with "I gotta have".
It's your choice. GO NOW and to hell with the "it depends".

I had to say it. no apologies, becoming a dirt person again is hard. John

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by rusky

Dear Bob,
You will cruise like a king on that budget - in fact it will rule you.

Of course his budget will rule him. All budgets rule all people (except those headed for bankruptcy court).

Yes, its more than many, but not excessive.
Often cruisers leave behind adult children or our parents and we know things can go wrong. To have that little bit extra to be able to fly home in an emergency is comforting... not living like a king.

[bangkaboat]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread this evening!
Meerkat's contribution to the topic was, for me, the clearest explanation of what one should budget for.

I look at this from the perspective of age, and intelligence vs. cojones(excuse my poor spanish). I have a much higher comfort requirement at the age of 46, than I did when I was in my early/mid 20s. As well, I have learned enough at this stage to view exploits of an earlier age with trepidation. Today, I'd be scared to death - much wiser, if you prefer-(than) to sail out of the harbour with some of the boats I thought were world pocket cruisers. Not because of the boats, but because of how they were outfitted, accompanied by my lack of seamanship. Still, it didn't stop me then...

In some ways, travelling by boat is the same as backpack travelling. No two travellers have the same experiences & no two places are exactly the same. You arrive in high season, your camera gets stolen, all unforeseen circumstances which add to your costs. You blow out your headsail, your port upper shroud fails, you get some dirty fuel, etc. . I'd suggest that there are not enough constants & too many variables to base a budget, even a "rough sketch", on the basis of another's costs. That may be a frustrating answer but it's the most honest one from my perspective.

Mike

PS:
When I was doing a job (fuel tanker repairs) at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard, I was paying $2/beer & the guy next to me was paying $5/beer. Yes, the same beer! (If he hadn't made me watch so much baseball, I swear I would have told him!)

[bobfnbw]

Originally Posted by rusky

Dear Bob,
You will cruise like a king on that budget - in fact it will rule you. You will find that you dont or cant use anywhere that amount unless you really try to! We live off the rental less expenses (inc mortgage repayments) from our house.

K.I.S.S = keep it simple,silly (actually replace silly for stupid, but thats only referring to myself!)

That may be true, but its on third of my life ashore budget.
While the KISS philosophy may be for some, I find it uncomfortable. To me kiss would be no refrigeration, no freezer, no water maker, no tv, or computer. No inverter, no solar or wind. 6" foam mattress, eat out few times, drink the bad stuff... no ice.. tired dock and anchor lines... and the list goes on.

For me, living is about enjoying myself. Eating out because I enjoy it. So I budget a lot for it.
Maintenance because I know what a poorly maintained boat will be like. So I budget for it.
Insurance because, you never know. So I budget for it. Health, life, boat and DAN insurance.
Major refit because I know that we will be hard on the boat and every once in a while all major systems will need to be changed out.
Of course, anything I don't spend that month gets put into a "spurge" fund. Like a trip thru Spain, or something like that. Fun stuff...
I would rather aim on the high side and have extra, than go low and be very disappointed.

As far as going now, it seems like a good thing, but in my case it is not.
My kids are in school. Yea I could home school. Been there, and did that. But its not that simple anymore. They would not like to be moved out of their zone, and frankly, I now accept the fact that I have to wait another 11 years. Helps me set up for doing it right.
Yea medical issues are always out there. As a registered nurse, I can tell you that you can not predict when that will happen. It can come on at anytime.
What will be will be, some I relax and wait for the day.

Bob

[Meerkat]

Originally Posted by bangkaboat

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread this evening!
Meerkat's contribution to the topic was, for me, the clearest explanation of what one should budget for.

<snip>

Well, it's nice to see someone recognised the formula for the great circle angular distance... (I think?).

Steve

[osirissail]

Whether you can go "now" or 11 years from "now" can be absolutely determined by having to raise children and where you are in your career. That is why we have a lot of cruising families in the Caribbean doing a "sabbatical" cruise versus "retirement" cruise.
- - In the first, the whole family takes a year or two off from work and school and does a circumnavigation of the Caribbean Basin. Or for Europeans they do a clockwise circle the Atlantic from Europe to the eastern Caribbean up to Antigua then back to Europe for the short circle or to the US east coast then back to Europe; or for 2-3 years they add a circumnavigation of the Caribbean basin to the Atlantic circle. The children are home schooled on the boat for the 2-3 years and are usually sub-teens which means they are getting the very basic parts of their education. All the parents I have met doing this are "glowing with pride" at how their kids are learning discipline, responsibility and self reliance along with learning about the world and environment, oceans, etc. When the kids return to school on land they usually go to the top of their classes and excel mainly because of the lessons and attitudes learned while being at sea.
- - If the kids are teens then it is very difficult or impossible to get them to shift from their set ways and even more difficult to get them to absorb the lessons of traveling the oceans and seas. They are too "set in their ways" by then just as adults seem to be - until they get to retirement age. And on the more practical side, if the kids are all going to College, you might end up living on your boat up some side creek in Corpus just to pay for the college.

[Lostmt]

Bob,
Do yourself a favor and take a few months off this coming summer and go cruising. 11 years from now might be to late. You see health is a major issue.

After a life time of working and reaching the SS age I bought a sailboat last Feb with plans on spending time sailing with the wife and enjoying the rest of my life walking different beaches and watching the sunsets together. Then in August life made a big change. I found out that I have Lupus, MCTD, and SS. Beings an RN you know what this does to a person.

I read all the time about people wanting to go cruising but in 10 years or more. When they have enough money or this or that. Go now enjoy the cruise because in 11 years you might just be reading about others doing it as you sit in a doctors office spending all that you saved to go cruising on.

Where in Corpus is your boat located? I have to be in Corpus at the doctors Tuesday and would like drive by your marina.

David