The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[osirissail]

I do not think the original question or most of the replies generated any "animosity". That was already existing in the minds and typing fingers of people without the language discipline to ask and answer with civility. It is a lost art in the modern world to tactfully ask and answer questions. Since everybody on the web is anonymous, it provides a license to libel and demean whereas in the old days, when face to face, you might loose some teeth with such language. CF is one of the better, more civil forums on the web and thusly attracts more civilized people willing to share experience and knowledge. If the level of civility continues to decrease, then this forum, like others will fall to the wayside and the Trolls will have won another one.

[Ex-Calif]

Seeing as how we have a few posts recently in this thread about civility I just wanted to state publicly again that one of our most important rules is the "Play Nice" rule. We think this makes CF a special place in the world of on-line fora.

We are all entitled to opinion and we are all entitled to be "right" or "wrong." We are all entitled to civil debate. However, when it goes personal the moderators will always handle things privately through PM. The general population won't know who is being moderated and what is being said. We find that works best.

If you see a post that you think violates the play nioce rule please hit the report button and a moderator will always get back to you via PM with a response. It's the best way to handle it.

There are several topics that polarize opinion - you all can figure out what they are. If something ticks you off take a moment to reflect on how your posts would appear to you if received from someone else.

Let's try and stick to the topic of "Cost of Cruising."

Thanks folks!

[BIG JOE]

Dear Vic, It must be frustrating as hell for you to keep coming accross people like me who dream. Yes I know if I really want it go for it but as a blue collar guy who has been working non stop since probably 14 (paper route lol) it is hard to take that leap because it goes against everything that the establishment, parents teachers, working class heroes and the rest have taught us. WORK WORK WORK TILL YOU DIE.
Now that being said all of us dry landers who envy guys like you traveling on a whim and deciding where you will live by the climate and prevailing winds find it terrifying to think about just going without experience or knowledge or anything and hoping we will be fine, hoping that this floating representation of everything we own will survive. Hoping that there are no pirates over that horizon or that squall doesn't turn into a full blown storm or the million other concerns. As a younger man I laughed at the unknown and said "F it, how do like me now!" Well my friend I am not that young guy anymore and it is hard to actually go for it and throw away everything we've been taught to do for so long.
So I guess when guys like me ask these questions about cost and pro's and con's we are actually asking in admiration because you've done what we all dreamed about doing and perhaps with your help we will be kind of like the movie "THE MATRIX" when we get unplugged from the system and are truly free, then we can laugh with you about such silly things. So take as a compliment my friend, for we are all looking to get out of the machine and start living like you.

Sincerely, the dry landers


P.S. so how much do you think it cost LOL

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by HobieFan

I don't see why this Kratch dude can't seem to grasp this.

grasp what? that it should be possible, through estimating and averaging out common costs of living, combined with taking out personally individual costs that are not generally shared amongst many people, to get a basic, average range that one can then modify based on personal factors and by knowing the specifics of the things that have been generalized/averaged, to establish on idea of what it might cost, in a very general sense, what a base cost of living may be? I think, as I've managed to do just that, and thanks to Osirissail for confirming my generalizations, iI'm really not sure why people continue to insist it can't be done?

Originally Posted by HobieFan

I've known people who lived on $200 per month for 8 months and then suddenly spend $2000 per month for 8 months on the same boat, with the same habits.

But those costs can be averaged to $1100... As I don't know any further details, I can't dig into it any further to see why it doesn't mesh with my conclusions, but that wasn't your intent.

I've known people who have lived on as little as $150 a month and those who have lived on $5000ish a month here in Toronto (on land). But I can confidently say that, the base cost of living in the downtown core will typically average around $2k-2.5K/month, because I'm capable of generalizing, and differentiating between what is needed and what is a matter of personal excess, and averaging the costs of what is needed based on what I imagine to be typical. The end result, while not specific to any individual, will give someone without the experience to know for themselves, an idea of what to expect, and thus, whether they are going to have to look into budget saving measures or whether they can be confident they can continue to lead the modest and comfortable lifestyle they currently live.

This kind of generalized information can help those wishing to get into the lifestyle make their choices as well, and is helpful to know before one chooses a destination and buys their boat. For example, someone who did not have a clue, and only received they typical "depends" answer, may discover the budget they had had to guess purely based on their land based costs, did not have enough money as they were expecting, and should have, had they had an idea (such as the generalization I have made with Osiris's confirmation), purchased a smaller boat and/or in a cheaper location.

Originally Posted by HobieFan

Ultimately, you take the amount you spend on food and insurance in a month, add the cost of other consumables (water, propane, etc). Toss in an unknown value for ship maintinance which will vary from $0 to the full replacement value of your boat, depending on how lucky you are, how cautious you are, how the weather treats you and let me repeat how lucky you are. Then you add on the cost of cruising permits, mooring fees, etc, which varies from exactly $0 to $ZOMG dollars, depending on which country you are in.

All of these costs can be averaged and/or generalized. It may never be exactly the same cost each month, but you should, assuming you've got the experience, be able to guess at how much you might spend in a year and then spread it out amongst each month.

Originally Posted by HobieFan

Then add the cost of your own personal items. I don't have hair, so I don't buy shampoo. You may. I have a friend who spends $300/mo on vitamins. Says he can't live without them. Obviously, he would have to factor that in. mmm

Then there's recreation, entertainment, etc. A cell phone? A sat phone? EPIRB? Add up those costs.

I'm not asking for you to create me a personal budget, so these factors should not be accounted for in the answer. that is something that I need to adjust for after recieving a context upon which to apply that adjustment.

Originally Posted by HobieFan

What I'm getting at is... you can cruise anywhere from...

$food+$bare_maintinance

to...

$ZOMGWTF


And EVERYWHERE in between.

Same can be said for land, but I bet if you were forced to move to a city and asked a friend (who lived there) what it might cost to live in that city/town, they can give you a ballpark on the base costs. And I bet if they insisted that the question couldn't be answered because there are to many variables, you'd get pretty annoyed too.

-------------------------------

Regardless, I have my answer. It has been confirmed by someone with experience (thanks again Osiris) and the numbers themselves have not been question. So I'm pretty much done here. Hopefully, the next time this question is asked, people will be kind enough to quote Osiris's post above to answer it, rather then leaving the asker in a sea of questions they can't possible answer without gaining firsthand experience (or making uninformed decisions) which requires an understanding of the base costs in order to make the right beforehand choices (such as boat size and sail location) to get that experience.

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

We are all entitled to opinion and we are all entitled to be "right" or "wrong." We are all entitled to civil debate. However, when it goes personal the moderators will always handle things privately through PM. The general population won't know who is being moderated and what is being said. We find that works best.

I wish I could believe that, but unfortunately, the post I found to be most offensive (towards me) in this thread, one that choose to question my character and maturity (and from behind the inconsiderate and, quite frankly, immature veil of a third person snub), rather then my conclusion (which I had posted at that point), was actually praised as a "good answer" by a moderator. While the information she may have relayed could have been helpful (it really wasn't, beyond attacking my character, it was simply a reiteration of what had already been said repeatedly), it was not a good answer due to how close it comes to being a personal attack (the "?"'s are really the only thing keeping it from being an attack) and how un-welcoming it is (telling me I don't have the personality to sail, simply because I choose to persist in the face of adversity rather then roll over and die). As both posts remain, clearly reporting the incedent didn't do much good, but I will continue to report first.



Pills can be taken in both ingested and suppository forms, both can be helpful, but one is a whole lot easier to take then the other.

[BIG JOE]

Kratch you seem to be pissed off? I hope it wasn't do to my addition to the thread, I must have missed something?

[Boracay]

It may be that one of the reasons for the huge diversity in estimated and real costs of cruising is that we need to consider the risk involved. So cruising on $1,000 p/m or less can be done, but it involves a trade off between risk and safety.

That is, all other things being equal :- a low cost/small boat is going to cruise for a lot less that a high cost/big boat, but the probability of things going wrong is higher on the smaller boat.

The level of risk that is acceptable is an individual decision.

It would be a lot easier to calculate a cost if a boat, it's age and condition were considered, together with the starting point, proposed route, any timetable and the level of comfort were supplied.

Tell us your plan and we'll tell you the cost.

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by BIG JOE

Kratch you seem to be pissed off? I hope it wasn't do to my addition to the thread, I must have missed something?

Just a little frustrated. Even after I've done the legwork and generalizations and come to a conclusion, I am continued to be told I am wrong to believe that a conclusion can be made. Rather then having anyone (except Osiris) addressing the conclusion that has been made, I'm told I'm wrong for even trying (and sometimes in the form of my character being called into question).
Can you see how this might frustrate someone?

Read OsirisSail's post above... It is precisely what people are asking for when they ask a question like "how much does cruising cost?". See how the generalizations, while not specific enough for anyone to use as a budget, can be used to make some basic choices such as boat size, sail location, time in anchorages, what degree one wish's to refit prior to launch, etc... (you know, the variables that are being claimed make the answer impossible) in relation to the money they can estimate earning/saving over a given period of time (that they establish). His post confirming my conclusion is in fact the answer everyone is telling me can't be given... So, if it has already been given and accepted, really, where is the basis for this "can't be given" insistence coming from?

Sorry Boracay, but I don't know those questions yet. I know approximately how much money I can save over a given period of time. I know my general spending habits in relation to what I would consider "average" (a subjective term, I know, but I'm aware of that and can adjust for that with a buffer). If I had an idea on a highly generalized cost of living (such as the conclusion I've come to of $1500-2000 that Osiris has confirmed (with Caveats)), I can now, within reason, judge the size and condition of boat I should invest in, and the general location with which I'd like to sail (and thus possibly purchase my boat), while maintaining the lifestyle I wish to live. It is all going to be approximates, and may not fit snugly into the $1500-200 range (adjusted to include personal/health concerns, creature comforts, and other variations from what would be considered "typical"), but it gives me a place to start making my decisions, at which point I can start producing a more specific budget, to make more specific decisions, to establish a more specific budget, etc etc etc.

[Vic de Beer]

Originally Posted by BIG JOE

Dear Vic, It must be frustrating as hell for you to keep coming accross people like me who dream. Yes I know if I really want it go for it but as a blue collar guy who has been working non stop since probably 14 (paper route lol) it is hard to take that leap because it goes against everything that the establishment, parents teachers, working class heroes and the rest have taught us. WORK WORK WORK TILL YOU DIE.
Now that being said all of us dry landers who envy guys like you traveling on a whim and deciding where you will live by the climate and prevailing winds find it terrifying to think about just going without experience or knowledge or anything and hoping we will be fine, hoping that this floating representation of everything we own will survive. Hoping that there are no pirates over that horizon or that squall doesn't turn into a full blown storm or the million other concerns. As a younger man I laughed at the unknown and said "F it, how do like me now!" Well my friend I am not that young guy anymore and it is hard to actually go for it and throw away everything we've been taught to do for so long.
So I guess when guys like me ask these questions about cost and pro's and con's we are actually asking in admiration because you've done what we all dreamed about doing and perhaps with your help we will be kind of like the movie "THE MATRIX" when we get unplugged from the system and are truly free, then we can laugh with you about such silly things. So take as a compliment my friend, for we are all looking to get out of the machine and start living like you.

Sincerely, the dry landers


P.S. so how much do you think it cost LOL

HI Joe,
From what I can determine, the cost to go cruising is most conservatively put, between $1000 and 2500. But I can imagine, on a short term, this may not be very accurate, as you could find un-expected spikes in the estimated cost.
Over a period the costs would even out (some months you may spend a lot e.g. if you are on a dock in Charlotte Amalie and some month you may not spend a cent e.g. if you are anchored at Ambergrys Key in the Turks and Caicos) .
The most economical boat, depending on the number of people on-board, is somewhere between 27 and 38 ft (cost of maintainance as well as living space) but again, during the course of your sailing life, you may want to up-grade to 40ft from a 36ft or even downgrade from a 38 ft to a 30 ft).
All-in-all, a very interesting (and at times - heated) debate during which I actualy anchiously waited for the next response to pop up on my computer.

[bobfnbw]

Seriously, this thread is dead.
It has been answered multiple times in every way, and the answer is always the same as it has always been.

"IT DEPENDS" and "HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE"

How about those not liking the answers given, go out and report back in a few years on what it cost them to cruise.
There are many ways to do something. If your boat is paid for, you go without insurance, anchor out and never eat out... you can do it for little.
If you owe money, have insurance, eat out a lot, want the latest toys, computers, etc, it will cost a lot.
Plan for the worst case. Read books like beth lenord, and others that lay it out there, for what it cost THEM. And then go, or don't go. There is no in between.

[osirissail]

-- There is still one super major fly in the whole ointment of going cruising that nobody except for s/vAlchemy has has the guts to mention - - the cost of operating a vessel on an extended cruise. Not the costs of weekend sails around home waters, but costs of crossing hundreds and thousands of miles of water for a years or more. Typical Caribbean circuit is 3 to 5 years.
- - The concept of boat operating and repair costs is not a concept within the normal consciousness of people living on land. An extended cruise in the ocean wrecks havoc on boat systems. A brand new boat with brand new equipment after it is properly broken in can expect - if lucky - up to 2 to 5 years before major systems start failing. Older vessels are constantly under repair.
- - There is an old joke that "BOAT" is not a word, it is short for "Break Out Another Thousand" dollars. Long time cruisers are rarely concerned with the mundane personal costs of cruising - they are concerned with the $100, $500, $1000 and $10K costs of repairs along the way. A dead battery can set you back $500 to $1000. A broken stanchion comes in normally about $100. A ripped sail repair can blow your monthly budget all to hell. Leaking this, leaking that and watch the bilge pump empty your wallet faster than the water in the bilge.
- - With your personal budget it is the nickel, dime stuff that adds up. With an operating boat it is the $500 and $1000 stuff that rips your wallet apart.
- - A very good friend from Canada sailed south with his wife and got as far as Luperon, D.R. where he had a local mechanic look at a leaky transmission. $500 dollars later the engine and transmission were toast. He had to buy an outboard motor mount it on the stern and limp back to the USA where it cost him $10K for a new engine and another $5K for a transmission. That was the end of their cruising for several years as they needed to go back to work to pay off the bills. Another friend made it all the way to Grenada in 2004 and after a storm was looking at $80K in repairs - that was the end of their cruising life. There are no nickel, dime repairs to boats, there a multiples of thousands. A simple recirculation pump can set you back $400. You will never see hundred dollar bills disappear so fast as when you have a boat that is cruising the oceans.
- - We either become expert electricians, plumber, diesel mechanics, rigging technicians ourselves - or we go broke paying $100 - $150 per hour for somebody else to do a half-ass job. Another friend with a cat while we were in Trinidad wanted to add a stainless steel arch of the stern for solar panels. Job was quoted at $800 and when months later it was finished the bill was $8K. You pay or they take the boat, you are the foreign visitor and have no legal rights.
- - Living cost, Ha! Not a factor, maintenance and repair costs have killed more cruiser's dreams than anything else. So the selection of a vessel and the outfitting prior to the extended cruise is critical to being able to complete or even continue your cruise. Some have compared long term ocean cruising to be a "demolition derby" on water. That is where the real "cost of cruising" lies, not in eating, drinking and touring.

[S/V Alchemy]

The above is very true. I'm sorry to have to say this, but this is the main reason why I am going to haul out in New Zealand at the 2.5-3 year mark of a five to six-year circ: because I expect that's just before I expect normal wear and tear to really require attention. And if that's an anticipated expense and delay, I want it to happen in a country with a decent reputation for expertise and honesty in trading...and a legal system not fuelled by drug cartels or corrupt colonels.

If you buy better gear (by which I mean commercial/fisheries gear, not West Marine), and you keep the systems simple, muscle-powered and well-maintained (like servicing the winches two or three times a year, regalvanizing your chain, replacing your hydraulic and sump oil religiously, checking every moused shackle, every rust spot and doing a monthly retorque of every freaking hose clamp aboard...you'll avoid a great deal of heartache and have at the end of your trip a worn, but serviceable boat.

I've seen people returning from Carib trips with boats that look lucky to be floating. Others seem to have near-pristine everything. The difference isn't always money: it's elbow grease and the knowledge that a maintained boat is a safer boat. Crap will always happen: I had a just-installed shackle shake off the headboard last weekend, and I think I need to modify it so that it can't vibrate loose in heavy air...but so much "wallet tragedy" is avoidable.

It is true, however, that the sea is erosive, corrosive and will shake everything loose. But it is also known. Twenty minutes a day looking at pins, rings, shackles and chafe gear will keep things mostly intact. There's a reason why some mainsails last for 20,000 or more miles...they are treated well, folded neatly, covered properly, and scrubbed of salt on a regular basis, and small tears and stitches are mended promptly.

[Kratch]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - The concept of boat operating and repair costs is not a concept within the normal consciousness of people living on land. An extended cruise in the ocean wrecks havoc on boat systems. A brand new boat with brand new equipment after it is properly broken in can expect - if lucky - up to 2 to 5 years before major systems start failing. Older vessels are constantly under repair.

My apologies. I should have acknowledged the separate, but important emergency fund when it first came up. I had already accounted for it as separate, but have not vocalized that I am aware of it till now. Though I believe it is a concept within the normal consciousness of people living on land, it takes a very different form. When living on land, if one owns property (car, house, whatever), they need the funds to make repairs to that property when things go wrong, just like a boat own. The significant difference is that on land, with a steady income, credit is often the answer for meeting those emergencies, with credit cards, financing and small loans for minor/small property repairs and taking out leans towards the equity of ones house for larger costs. When living on a boat, credit is far less likely and expenses can soar beyond what one on land would expect, or possibly more often. As such, an emergency fund needs to be established, prior to setting off, and separate from the budget.

[HobieFan]

Originally Posted by Kratch

My apologies. I should have acknowledged the separate, but important emergency fund when it first came up. I had already accounted for it as separate, but have not vocalized that I am aware of it till now.

What seems to be the difference (and it is what both osiris and I were thrusting at with our last posts, I think) is that the "maintenance fund" IS the budget. It's often larger than the budget. It's not an "emergency fund" per se, it's a maintinance budget and it varies so wildly based on the type of cruising, type of boat and type of work you do personally, that it's almost impossible to quantify in advance.

It outweighs all other expenses and while you could try to quantify the price like this..... "a sailor with a degree of attentiveness that ranks a 7 on a scale of 10 and has a 30 foot boat, which ranks 4 on a scale of 10 in terms of maintenance required and cruises in waters that rank 5 on a scale of 10 in terms of harshness to equipment may have a budget of $xxx". Without that level of qualification, it's tough to determine, but who wants to go to that level?

A majority of folks I know who quit halfway through a voyage, did so because they encountered massive unexpected expenses, or problems their budget didn't account for. Those people who didn't quit were often the ones who didn't have a budget. They simply had some money and they were going to keep going until the money was gone. :-)

But at this point, I'll step out and leave it at that.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by HobieFan

What seems to be the difference (and it is what both osiris and I were thrusting at with our last posts, I think) is that the "maintenance fund" IS the budget.

I am in this camp. If your horizon is 3-5 years you think about things differently than the person looking at retiring at 50 and going to 80.

The 3-5 person can argue that they don't need health care because they are young and fit. Argue that tey don't need to consider an engine overhaul cuz the engine lasts 10 years.

I am in the camp of "everything is in the budget" because it will become my lifestyle. In our current boat ownership we have a maintenance budget built in. We bought the boat and it was at "condition 1." We want to improve the boat so we factored that in and we want to have a maintenance reserve so we don't have to bust a credit card to buy a sail.

It works for us at $600 per month - Just for our rather small boat! I expect for the future boat it will be higher. We would add to that monthly nut all the "normal" things to keep the crew alive.

I think the only way to start an apples to apples comparison is to start with everything in.