The 50 Dollar Cruising Club (as a New CF Social Group ?) - Any Thoughts ? / Input ?

[David_Old_Jersey]

OK, a little bit to work with.........

Originally Posted by roger.waite

Great opportunity for skippers. $50 donations gratefully received for delightful, practical and eminently sharable experiences with fitting out, swabbing bilges, etc.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

We would do that for a couple provided they pitched in and helped and didnt treat it like it was their luxury cruise and we were the crew.

My thinking is that waiting until visitors have arrived before hauling out for an antifoul - then leaving them to it whilst you have a cold beer under a palm tree .......and then charging 'em for the antifoul paint is probably not in the spirit of things ............but the upside is, if the boat needs a haulout for some reason and means also an opportunity to do an antifoul at the same time then they don't get a refund - even if they are not press ganged.........., it's part of the "real life" package. and why it's cheap

But depending on the crew and what they are looking for from the experiance not impossible that they are interested in how and where you haulout a 40' fin keel boat........and learning what a DIY (or yard) antifoul job involves...........remember, that what for you and me may be obvious and mundane can easily be puzzling and of concern to those at the beginning of their learning curves............a squillion things onboard that would fit into the category of not exactly fun filled entertainment but nonetheless real world useful to learn - if thinking / dreaming of later following in your footsteps..........and most importantly they are often the things that make the beer at the end of the day taste all the better

Not to say you start a refit when they arrive but then again it is not a commercial charter where the work involved on a boat gets hidden from guests...........so crew takes the rough with the smooth as part of normal everyday onboard life..That's why it's cheap .

Also important that is clearly explained that the fundamental part of the deal is that Crew Guests are not hiring a skipper / gofer ...........they are signing up to be crew members to experiance "real" life, not to say that the Skipper won't ever try and make their trip interesting / enjoyable

Originally Posted by Starbuck

I'm no expert on what constitutes "for hire," but wouldn't you have to do something like pool the money, then total expenses, pay from the pot & reimburse the remainder in even shares (or something similar), in order to avoid taking profit?

Very valid concerns.

My understanding is that crew paying expenses only is widely accepted (by licencing authorities and insurers) as non-commercial......but no requirement to physically mix the notes and return any cash not consumed. After all, not all expenses are incurred when the crew member is onboard, so although the skipper may end up with cash in his pocket at the end of the week it is not automatically "profit". My intention is that not all of the fifty dollars will actually be consumed by the Crew - depends on onboard lifestyle. and maybe fishing ability It's to meet boat expenses (that includes crew), not simply a crew allowance.

The most likely point of possible problem (with legal / local authorities) I can see is if the skipper prices his "expenses" too high. Easy to claim non-commercial at $1 a day (as that would mean the crew was subsidised!) - less easy at $1000 a day!........the answer to my mind is keeping the headline daily expenses figure low (and wayyyyyy below commercial rates - the 50 Dollar figure is just a working sum / catchy title - each vessel will set their own rates, just probably wouldn't let those in who were clearly taking the p#ss on "expenses" and were running unlicensed Charters) - even if topped up with the odd supplement (Fifty Dollars a day cruising, plus expenses )........as long as agreed with both parties in advance...........add into that not taking on crew guests continuously helps demonstrate not a commercial operation (if skipper was fully loading folk 24/7/365 then IMO would be stupid anyway not to go fully commercial licenced etc and up the rates massively)...........the Social Group will include a disclaimer / warning that it is up to both parties to ensure they are each aware of / comfortable with the position.


BTW have not ignored the other responses Still have my thinking hat on

Also incurred to me, might be a way of forming the basis of a boat swap (saves sailing half way round the world ). Not bareboat (not at $50!!) but instead swapping roles as guest crew - but nonetheless each covering expenses (overall the same result as free but no one out of pocket at "half time")............want a 60' Cat for $50 a day? Easy, also put one in the deal yourself

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Also incurred to me, might be a way of forming the basis of a boat swap (saves sailing half way round the world).

At some stage some rtw cruisers might even go for a house/boat swap.
For example we never want to take the boat near snow and ice, but we would love to have a White Christmas sometime.
Somone may want a Caribbean Christmas while we soak in their turbo-tub and build snow bunnies in the front yard whilst attending Westmarine every day for snow bound specials (This is begining to sound great!!!).

Whilst the other couple get to swab our decks in the sun.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Whilst the other couple get to swab our decks in the sun.

I'd feed you yellow snow on the return leg

[Roaring Girl]

Sounds an interesting idea - but there's a difference between 'weeks' and a week or 10 days. RG is 40' and we would not take anyone - let alone people we didn't personally know - for more than a few days at a time. It's just too much like hard work, to be honest.

But if nice CF types were interested in a few days of learning/co-cruising, we might would consider it.

[Hud3]

David,

On the $50 fee issue...

This only applies in the U.S., but it sheds some light on the issue how sharing of expenses is handled, from a strictly legal standpoint. The following is an excerpt from an article published by the USCG Sector Hampton Roads, in Virginia.

It's clear that requiring a fixed payment, whether designed to "offset" various unaccounted for expenses or not, versus a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage , would mean that the "crew" would be viewed as a "passengers for hire", and the the boat's operator would become subject to regulation as a commercial charterer.

The key determinants are the terms "voluntary" and "actual expenses". To be strictly "legal", you can't charge a fixed "fee" such as $50 per person. You need to tally up the actual expenses and then give the crew the opportunity to "voluntarily" pony up their pro rata share. Or not. They don't have to pay.

Of course, the USCG would need to actually catch you charging a fixed fee to do anything about it...

The question of at what point an individual becomes a “passenger for hire” has caused confusion but is very straightforward. “Passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having interest in the vessel (46 CFR 24.10-1). Therefore, requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation.
“Consideration” means an economic benefit or profit including payment of money or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or supplies. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage (46 CFR 175.400).
If a vessel carries just one individual passenger, or “hop on,” who provides anything more than a voluntary sharing of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is operating as a passenger vessel and requires a Coast Guard licensed operator. If more than six passengers are involved, the vessel will require certification as a Coast Guard inspected vessel, as well as a licensed operator. In other words, if the owner, charterer, operator, agent or anyone else who has an interest in the vessel receives any money, fuel, or supplies that the passenger did not freely choose to share as part of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is carrying a passenger for hire...

source: http://vbsf.net/coastgaurd/Operators.pdf

[YourOldNemesis]

Having spent a year crewing right the way across the Atlantic and Pacific on 9 different boats I have to say that USD50/day is incredibly expensive. The whole thing (island-hopping flights to meet boats, some nights ashore, 2 people's PADI open water courses, lots of diving, EVERYTHING for a year) cost 2 people £4000 each.

The fairest, least tax-dodgy way to work the expenses is on a kitty basis. Normally the kitty is used for fuel, mooring fees, laundry, food (drink is separate). Anything else you have to pay for is likely to be a cost that you would have incurred anyway as the skipper.

[s/v Beth]

So I need to change my approach to "voluntary contributions up to 50 dollars a day to pay for maintenance of the boat will be gratefully accepted"...
Would you insert that into my earlier offer HUD? And get rid of of cost thingy?

Edit: will do, Newt. --- Hud

[MarkJ]

Totally free, of course. However we will be going into International waters. Return to some country happens to cost $50 per day

I take it the US Coast Guard doesnt think they have some right over an Australian vessel in International waters do they?

[Hud3]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

...I take it the US Coast Guard doesnt think they have some right over an Australian vessel in International waters do they?

Heh! Don't crank that one up, Mark! Quickest way to derail a thread, after guns and pirates.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Hud3

Heh! Don't crank that one up, Mark! Quickest way to derail a thread, after guns and pirates.

Yes, it was in jest. But the point remains that as long as one is not broadcasting it too loudly and some international waters are involved and its not a regular activity, then it would not be any problem in any of the cruising areas of the world.

If one set up a sandwich board on the dock at home, or someone made a business out of it then it would be noticed and pounced on by some authority. One may be informed on by some registered charter operator not likeing people nicking customers.




Mark

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Hud3

The key determinants are the terms "voluntary" and "actual expenses". To be strictly "legal", you can't charge a fixed "fee" such as $50 per person. You need to tally up the actual expenses and then give the crew the opportunity to "voluntarily" pony up their pro rata share. Or not. They don't have to pay.

Cheers for the info (and link) - won't be trying to out clever the US authorities. But my reading of expenses does not relate solely to items consumed by the crew. To my mind a boat expense also covers from use of the toilet, bedding. cutlery etc etc (ad infinitum ) as all need to be purchased, maintained and ultimately replaced (at a cost) - guest crews use does shorten life span (no matter in how small a way)..........to not recoup this expense is to actually subsidise the guest crew.

Recouping expenses in a voluntary way? Collect in advance before leaving the dock (but only for cash flow purposes) and then refund anything left over. Of course still voluntary - just captain also gets to voluntarily decide where your berth is. In a bunk. in the dink.........or on the dock

Of course, the USCG would need to actually catch you charging a fixed fee to do anything about it...

source: http://vbsf.net/coastgaurd/Operators.pdf

Or be in there waters / with a US reg boat

But nonetheless I am wanting the $50CC to adhere to the principal of not for profit / not for commercial gain (even when outside US waters - elsewhere I am sure similar rules) - a matter of how this is translated into practice to avoid misunderstanding (by the legal / tax authorities - worldwide)

[s/v Beth]

I am not trying to be tricky here. I don't think anyone that owns a nice boat would be. But it costs a lot to keep it going. To go have fun with a group of people that are willing to contribute to the up keep sounds like a great idea. But on the other hand- all they need to do is tear a door off the cabin and I'm in negative territory...
Hmmm...I'll give it a try

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by YourOldNemesis

Having spent a year crewing right the way across the Atlantic and Pacific on 9 different boats I have to say that USD50/day is incredibly expensive. The whole thing (island-hopping flights to meet boats, some nights ashore, 2 people's PADI open water courses, lots of diving, EVERYTHING for a year) cost 2 people £4000 each.

The fairest, least tax-dodgy way to work the expenses is on a kitty basis. Normally the kitty is used for fuel, mooring fees, laundry, food (drink is separate). Anything else you have to pay for is likely to be a cost that you would have incurred anyway as the skipper.

Point taken. But the $50CC will not be about providing the cheapest option. nor trying to be attractive to all.

The $50 is a working number as a starting point - but I doubt will be lower (albeit could be)...........it's more about folk willing to share the experiance rather than needing crew not being out of pocket overall (not just in immediate expenses).........with probably the target market those still working so $50 a day is cheap - especially if only for a week or 2.

..........but it could end up being attractive to penniless Tramps and Millionaire supermodels - which one with the boat? Who knows

[boatman61]

Hmmmm....
Not to sure about the Insurance side of this idea... some one gets hurt on board... dose of food poisoning... you'll find the "payment" would very soon be exposed by the Litigation Crazies out to make a quick buck to fund 'their boat...'
Its funny how people change when there's a chance to make a buck... and lets face it.. how well do you know them.. do they have to sign a waiver... would that be legal in a court...??
I doubt it...
Sorry David, great idea but I saw a guy lose his boat in Andratx, Mallorca when he had a 'Denuncia' slapped on him by a 'Crew member'..

[dirtydon]

where do i sign.are you thinking about minimum time? 10 days, 2weeks? max one month? probaly pre interview so no keel hauling?