Survey Missed BIG Issues: My Loss?

[Snore]

This comment is confusing for someone on the learning curve:

Originally Posted by zeehag

surveyors only survey for the bank and insurance cos. they are not a guide for what is wrong with boat. they are not in htis to do any but make sure boat is basically seaworthy ..

So if one hires a surveyor to do an inspection that would include checking for for blistering/delamination- and (s)he does not note that large (non structural sections of the core are shot- there is no liability?

I do not want to sound foolish- it is just a tad confusing.

Bill

[Kettlewell]

I suspect that the time lapsed since the survey would be detrimental to any case you could bring against the surveyor. How could you prove that your boat hadn't banged up against a dock in a big storm subsequent to the survey or that someone hadn't rammed the side of your boat, or your boat hadn't been dropped during a haulout, etc., or just that time and wear and tear hadn't worked its magic? Besides, how long before you eat up a good chunk of that $20K on lawyer's fees?

[cburger]

Originally Posted by Snore

This comment is confusing for someone on the learning curve:



So if one hires a surveyor to do an inspection that would include checking for for blistering/delamination- and (s)he does not note that large (non structural sections of the core are shot- there is no liability?

I do not want to sound foolish- it is just a tad confusing.

Bill

Bill, as much as I like Zeehag this is a mistatement, surveyors are often hired to perform acessments of a boat during the purchase process independent of any bank being involved.

[ari11]

Hi all,
First of all, thanks a lot for all your replies.
Couple of answers:
- One did NOT have to rip apart the boat. Simply put a camera under the floorboards to take pictures would have brought this to light.
- At the moment there are some lines on internet about this issue but they came out mid 2010. Convinced this must have been known before in the surveyor community.
- I was/am insured, I wish I had banged against something, insurance would have paid.
- I did not take out a loan. I paid for the surveyor and he only worked for me.

Again, thnx for your time. if there ever will be a second boat I will at least make new mistakes...

[jim767]

Originally Posted by cburger

Bill, as much as I like Zeehag this is a mistatement, surveyors are often hired to perform acessments of a boat during the purchase process independent of any bank being involved.

I agree. I have just completed the purchase of an older ketch. I spent at least 3 days going over the boat myself then hired a surveyor to take a look. The cost of the survey was reasonable except for the lift fees, but what do you expect when lifting a 53' ketch.

The surveyor provided a second set of eyes to find issues that were later resolved, monetarily, during the final price negotiation. The surveyor also added credibility to my adjustments on the final price.

There was no insurance company or finance institution involved, just me and my wallet.

I would be upset if the survey did not reveal a "missing" major structural component that later resulted in damage or failure but I'm not sure given the lapse of time that you would have a viable case.

Good Luck

[S/V_Surya]

I would like to see a picture of the crack. $20k to fix seems high.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by ari11

Hi all,
End 09 I bought a boat. Directly afterwards it became obvious there was cracking in hull. Repair job of 4k. This month it turned out survey missed ripped off bulkhead/stringer (which caused crack to reappear). This will set me back 20k. What are my options? Has anybody ever been in a similar situation? Surveyor has excellent reputation.

Not only did the surveyor miss this. But so do did the person doing the initial repair. and also you missed it - twice (once on purchase and then on initial repair)......until a year and a half later.

Unless you asked for a CSI style Forensic examination - then you ain't gonna get one from a Surveyor. If no indication (say like visible cracking) that anything amiss (with something that requires a remote camera. or destructive testing to inspect) - then it's simply a risk you take when buying a s/h boat. Could have asked for the Vendor to give a guarantee that no major problems would surface a few years later - but probably not too many willing to do that. I suspect you wouldn't either.

I doubt if the Surveyor sold you his report as the answer to everything - even if you thought it was.

Probably not the answer you want to hear. But the good news is that always a lawyer around who will take money off you to try and prove otherwise. and you may even win - or get a settlement.

[Dragon Lady]

Have you spoken to the surveyor about your problem?
I'm sure he's not going to give you $20K to fix the boat but he may be able to help you get the boat fixed a bit cheaper.
If his reputation is a good as you say, I'm sure he will want to keep intact.
It's in his interests to get a good outcome for you, the last thing he needs is you trashing his reputation.
It would be a good idea to consult a lawyer but given the time frame you may not have any grounds for legal action.
I hope it works out for you.

[SabreKai]

Sounds to me like you want to spend half an hour with a lawyer. They usually do the initial consult for free. But I suspect he will tell you either good luck, or will say sure we can sue because he will make money on it regardless.

I'd say you are stuck with the bill. I'd also say that getting a good surveyor is a matter of luck. I've had dealings with them 3x. The first two times, the fellow was a British licensed and trained surveyor, and he was meticulous. He wouldn't even touch the boat unless all panels were up, and all hidden spaces opened up for inspection. My buddy and I went up 3 hours before he arrived and emptied all the gear off the boat into a pile on the ground. The first survey he did was for purchase. Saved me 25% on the purchase price. Got a 6 page report, with itemized details and photos of what the problems were. The second time he surveyed for the insurance, after I'd had the boat a month and done all the repairs noted. Got a second report, increased the value of the boat by 65% over purchase price. Not bad for 1.5x his fee. (second time round he only charged me half price as he was only checking out the repairs)

On my 3rd go round, the fellow had retired and I got a local guy. I figure he spent a couple hours in the local bar writing up the report, after having spent minimal time on the boat. He didn't catch a lot of things, and some of what he caught was totally bogus. How do you tell the condition and size of a water tank if its built in and can't be seen at all? How do you entirely miss the second water tank up in the bow? I guess he missed the deck fill up on the bow and the hoses coming back to the head from up forward. Again, that tank was sealed in behind furniture. How do you look at a home made welded steel tank, that's rusting and determine that it's aluminum? How do you miss the fact that the furling drums are extremely stiff and making grinding noises when you turn them? The mast was up at the time, the drums were right there in front of him.

Anyway, I over paid by about $10k. And there's not a thing to be done about it. Up here in Canada, any joker can hang out his surveyors sign. I may do it myself next year when I retire. I figure after 30 years of messing with boats, I know about as much if not more than the average one does. And I'll charge less to boot.


Sabre

[s/v 'Faith']

Getting a survey is largely an exercise designed to appease your insurer and in some cases you lender. Most (all?) surveys are written with some pretty good disclaimers, and make it very difficult to get much in the way of compensation when they miss something.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day all,

On the other side of the coin, I know a surveyor here in Oz who quit the biz because he was being sued so often. In his view, people didn't want to pay for a really thorough survey, and when constrained to a few hours of inspection plus writing time, he (and in his opinion, all other surveyors) would inevitably miss things.

I reckon that he has a valid point. If one is willing to pay tradesmen 100 bucks an hour to do grunt labour on your boat (as many seem to do) it's only reasonable to pay a surveyor at least as much. To do a "all the nooks and crannys" inspection of a typical cruising boat, plus have a look at the engine, mast, rigging and sails, and do it properly will easily take a couple of days. Yet folks seem to waffle at a 400 dollar survey fee... no wonder he quit!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Lake Macquarie, NSW, Oz

[Snore]

Originally Posted by SabreKai

all hidden spaces opened up for inspection. My buddy and I went up 3 hours before he arrived and emptied all the gear off the boat into a pile on the ground.

Sabre

That is a pearl of wisdom!!! Thanks

[Boracay]

My belief is that the survey is part of a chain of events that forms the boat buying process.

The section may look something like this:-

[Use rose coloured glasses to find boat]
\/
[Engage surveyor to remove rose coloured glasses.]
\/
[Discount price of boat based on surveyor's report]
\/
[Apply a further discount to cover what is not in the surveyor's report]
\/
[.....]

[ari11]

lol, the rose coloured glasses I for sure, to make my point: I went over his recommended price.... Again, thanks everybody for all the replies. Mast is off, floorboards will be opened nxt week.
I decided to ask for my money back, I think that is the maximum I can get out of it.
Thanks again.
Cheers, Ari