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Old 08-07-2011, 12:22   #16
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Originally Posted by Nomad57 View Post
Quite so, Hummingway. That's pretty-much as I understood it. Although, I am not expecting the 'drastically reduced prices' that are available in the U.S. Neither am I expecting to pay through the nose for a twenty-five year-old boat with twenty-five year-old worn out sails.

Nor am I expecting to pay the price of a new boat for a used one, just because the owner bought when our dollar was down. His mistake, not mine. I specifically avoided a new boat purchase back then for that reason. I won't pay for someone else' mistake.

Nomad
I would suggest that if you are still even looking at worn-out boats with worn-out sails, you need to learn to shop smarter and more ruthlessly, just as I would suggest the sellers stop aching over what THEY paid back when everyone wanted a 30-foot weekender and get friggin' real about the fact that all those boomers are getting on now, and are flooding the market with the boats they bought when they were 40 and no longer want to keep up.

You need to get very, very specific about what you will tolerate, and what price you will pay. Then you need to make low-ball offers, subject on survey and sea trial.

If they don't go for it, tell them you welcome them to call you in the spring, after THEY have eaten the storage and haul-out fees. Then you knock off another two grand for their "greed tax" and a further grand if the survey shows, as it will, needed maintenance like "replace all crappy, frozen, brass gate valves" or "rebuild Atomic 4".

I bought my first boat at the end of the summer in '99 (same bright idea) and got a discount of nine grand on an initial price of $32K, which is 30%.

People are buying well-used, but well-loved, 30 footers for $10-15K here in Toronto. Boats are CHEAP (or should be) and rightfully so...the big cost is that of keeping them in working order, and at a dock. That's several grand a year in most cases (unless you have a private dock or mooring, I suppose, and a place to work on the boat in the winter both warm and dry), and THAT is the big bar to Canadian boat ownership...the "pay to play" aspect, along with the zillion other ways to amuse oneself in our current age of miracles.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:36   #17
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Re: Sucker's Market

It's always hard buying a boat.... the "deals" dont look so good when you go to see them. On the other hand, I just missed a San Juan 30 yesterday that was $3500 with 27 hp diesel. ("moving away..must sell today!") Not really and offshore cruising boat, but what a deal! You need to find the boat you want and negotiate without being emotionally attached .... Some sellers are nuts in this market... my guess is they really dont know the market...
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:20   #18
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Re: Sucker's Market

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So you're getting a boat which is at the very most 50% through it's lifespan (23 years old and should last the same again) for 20% of the cost new, and you might have to spend $3K on sails. Yep, sounds like you've got lots to complain about. Maybe you should spend it on a car instead? (new car for $32K, worthless in 10 years)

Why don't you just buy that Catalina and go sailing?
That was my intention, but the boat has deck problems (the usual Catalina issues of compression post damage and the Catalina smile), and I was discouraged from considering it, by the members in this forum.

There are other issues as well.

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:30   #19
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Re: Sucker's Market

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For thos of us not in the buy / sell market at the moment what *is* FMV on these boats right now?
FMV is hard to determine in the current marketplace, but some of the boats that I looked at were in the high 40s, with no dodger or bimini. By the time I add these things, and pay the tax, I would have over $50,000 into a boat that is supposedly inferior to the Catalina, a quarter century old.

I won't put that much money into a quarter century old boat of 30 feet. And people told me I was daffy for considering $30,000.

I'm getting conflicting advice in here, from people with conflicting opinions. One says $30,000 in the current market is too much. The other says $40,000 is a bargain.

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:35   #20
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Gee, K, I hope it isn't the one that was in La Paz.

Nomad, I was experiencing the same thing in B.C. and broadened my horizons to include the west coast, from Alaska to Mexico. Even the boat I eventually bought was listed at twice as much as I paid for her. I'd suggest looking in the areas on the east coast of the U.S. that are hurting from the economic downturn, finding the best few examples you can there, then contacting the broker & asking him/her to send you a purchase agreement for that boat. If the selling price is written in(usually), pull the document into "paint" & remove the price, write in your preferred price & fax it back, along with the deposit, if requested(usually). Make sure it's "subject to", then await a response. If the seller won't play, the broker may be able to track you down another one. I've seen several boats in B.C. taking up a couple of years worth of moorage, because the seller turned down earlier offers. In fact, I'm pretty sure that at least 5 sellers of boats I made offers on are wishing they'd given more thought to what was on the table. My "after survey" offer - and purchase - was less than 50% of the asking price. My original offer was less than 70%.
Bangkaboat,

I will be taking my time, and broadening my horizons. I'm in no rush. It would have been nice to have a boat to sail for this season, but I'm crewing for friends, and that will help me to determine:

1. Is sailing for us?
2. How big a boat do we want?

I was perusing the marketplace, so that when we ARE ready to jump in, we won't have to then figure it all out.

I don't intend to play the sap for anyone.

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:42   #21
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Snip...


So don't expect too much more -- the market is well off where it was 3 years ago (I'd guess 30-50% in some cases).

Make sure you enjoy the search -- its definitely half the fun.

Luck
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Thanks,

I'm not looking to steal anyone's boat, I just don't want to get loaded into one.

The Canadian marketplace can be weird. In 1993, I was told that it was hard to sell a boat, any boat. In 2004, when we put our Trojan up for sale, it was very difficult to sell a powerboat, and difficult to find a good used sailboat.

I think the sailboat owners who bought back then are thinking that it is still that way. They don't seem to realize that they are competing in a global marketplace.

Even the broker who listed one boat admits that the price is $20,000 too high (on a newer boat).

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:48   #22
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Re: Sucker's Market

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I would suggest that if you are still even looking at worn-out boats with worn-out sails, you need to learn to shop smarter and more ruthlessly, just as I would suggest the sellers stop aching over what THEY paid back when everyone wanted a 30-foot weekender and get friggin' real about the fact that all those boomers are getting on now, and are flooding the market with the boats they bought when they were 40 and no longer want to keep up.

You need to get very, very specific about what you will tolerate, and what price you will pay. Then you need to make low-ball offers, subject on survey and sea trial.

If they don't go for it, tell them you welcome them to call you in the spring, after THEY have eaten the storage and haul-out fees. Then you knock off another two grand for their "greed tax" and a further grand if the survey shows, as it will, needed maintenance like "replace all crappy, frozen, brass gate valves" or "rebuild Atomic 4".

I bought my first boat at the end of the summer in '99 (same bright idea) and got a discount of nine grand on an initial price of $32K, which is 30%.

People are buying well-used, but well-loved, 30 footers for $10-15K here in Toronto. Boats are CHEAP (or should be) and rightfully so...the big cost is that of keeping them in working order, and at a dock. That's several grand a year in most cases (unless you have a private dock or mooring, I suppose, and a place to work on the boat in the winter both warm and dry), and THAT is the big bar to Canadian boat ownership...the "pay to play" aspect, along with the zillion other ways to amuse oneself in our current age of miracles.
SV_Alchemy,

That is exactly what I plan to do, IF our summer of crewing on a race boat reveals that we are able to handle it (health issues). If that is not the case, you'll find us next winter in the Dominican Republic, where the living is good, and not too expensive.

Thank you, for your helpful comments.

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 13:55   #23
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Originally Posted by Nomad57 View Post
I think the sailboat owners who bought back then are thinking that it is still that way. They don't seem to realize that they are competing in a global marketplace.
Nomad
I disagree that it is a global market. Most people buying a boat don't go far from there own area. There is a lot of demand for boats in BC and the price stays up when compared to the US. People are selling their boats for a lot more then people south of here and they do sell.

For the few that are able to go anywhere and buy a boat it may work out but that isn't most boat buyers. I know a fellow who had his heart set on a Bristol and the east coast is where they're found it seems. By the time he flew there several times and shipped it here he had added $20000 to the price and it had cost him several weeks away from his home and business. He didn't see it as a way to get a good deal.
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Old 08-07-2011, 14:33   #24
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Re: Sucker's Market

Maybe it is just my simple way of looking at things, but if the boat has not sold in 1 year the price does not reflect the current FMV. There may be some intrinsic evaluation that the asking price "is a fair price" but if no one has bought it- the price ain't fair in this market.

Please look at sailboatlistings.com or click on Catalina sailboats for sale by owner.

There are boats on the market for FOUR years. If the asking price really reflected the current market for that boat, the vessel would have sold. Since the market will not pay the asking price, the buyer waits for someone to pay above market. That is just marketing/economics 101.



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Old 08-07-2011, 14:43   #25
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Re: Sucker's Market

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... I'm starting to get fed up with the whole used boat market in my area. I may have to shop elsewhere ...
Indeed.
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Old 08-07-2011, 14:58   #26
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Re: Sucker's Market

Nothing but a rant, by someone wanting a steal. What about the loss to the seller? Should they feel good about that?

The market is the market; if you can't find what you want at the price you want, guess what, it's not sellers, it's you; you want too much. Additionally, most people that own good baots are financially savvy and can out-wait a down market.

Find a boat, pay the price, and post about your trips.

BTW, if the boat is hauled you will still need a sea trial; not much fun in Toronto in the winter. TANSTAFL.
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Old 08-07-2011, 16:14   #27
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Nothing but a rant, by someone wanting a steal. What about the loss to the seller? Should they feel good about that?

The market is the market; if you can't find what you want at the price you want, guess what, it's not sellers, it's you; you want too much. Additionally, most people that own good baots are financially savvy and can out-wait a down market.

Find a boat, pay the price, and post about your trips.

BTW, if the boat is hauled you will still need a sea trial; not much fun in Toronto in the winter. TANSTAFL.
Yes, it's a genuine, bona-fide rant. But I've already said that I don't want to steal anyone's boat. But given today's economic conditions, (and by that I mean that our dollar is above par, and that the duty on boats has been eliminated) I do not want to pay a price higher than market because somebody decided to by his boat with a $0.61 dollar.

If I see ten boats of the same type and year listed, and the one in Canada is priced significantly higher than one elsewhere, that bothers me.

I do not want to pay below market, but I do not want to pay above market.

It's a simple question of exchange rates. If you own something that is valued in U.S. dollars, as the value of the U.S. dollar declines, the value of what you own declines right along with it. I will not pay someone an inflated price for something that he paid an inflated price for when he bought it.

I am absolutely, positively, sick and tired of being taken for a sucker because I am Canadian.

Thank you, for telling everyone in the forum here what you think I am thinking, and what you think I want.

Nomad
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Old 08-07-2011, 16:33   #28
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Re: Sucker's Market

this is reminding me of when a certain gender tells me a problem; they don't really want any input, just want to tell it to me

there was a book; something about Mars and Venus
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Old 08-07-2011, 16:34   #29
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Re: Sucker's Market

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Yes, it's a genuine, bona-fide rant. But I've already said that I don't want to steal anyone's boat. But given today's economic conditions, (and by that I mean that our dollar is above par, and that the duty on boats has been eliminated) I do not want to pay a price higher than market because somebody decided to by his boat with a $0.61 dollar.

If I see ten boats of the same type and year listed, and the one in Canada is priced significantly higher than one elsewhere, that bothers me.

I do not want to pay below market, but I do not want to pay above market.

It's a simple question of exchange rates. If you own something that is valued in U.S. dollars, as the value of the U.S. dollar declines, the value of what you own declines right along with it. I will not pay someone an inflated price for something that he paid an inflated price for when he bought it.

I am absolutely, positively, sick and tired of being taken for a sucker because I am Canadian.

Thank you, for telling everyone in the forum here what you think I am thinking, and what you think I want.

Nomad
Blarney. You are a buyer -- you oughta want "a steal". And from what everyone here seems to be smelling in your original post -- you do. Good for you. You'll probably have the best chance at accomplishing that goal (let's call it a "good value" just to be nice) if you can keep the focus off of that desire of yours. That's why I asked you what FMV was on the boats you were interested in -- because if you know what it is (to you) and you want the boat, then put some cash behind your opiniono and make an offer. Shut up about what the seller(s) should or should not do -- he doesn't care what you think -- and give him something to act upon. As for being "loaded onto boats" or however you described it -- well, sellers do sell, don't they?

Good luck -- remember to take your wife out to dinner each time you drag her to look at another boat!
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Old 08-07-2011, 16:38   #30
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Re: Sucker's Market

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I am absolutely, positively, sick and tired of being taken for a sucker because I am Canadian.

Nomad

I missed this line the first time. It is priceless. ROTFL
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