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Old 13-10-2015, 08:34   #31
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

From my experience, insurance companies require a survey if the insured amount is higher than an arbitrary threshold they set based on some underwriter living in Iowa who has never seen water other than in his/her bathtub.
Most marinas require proof of liability insurance to rent you a slip in case your vessel causes damage to other renters or the marina itself. You can usually pick this type of coverage up relatively inexpensively. I wouldn't survey a boat worth $5000... Check it out yourself and you should be OK. Phil
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Old 13-10-2015, 08:44   #32
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

You will need a survey to get insurance to dock or moor just about everywhere. Some yards won't let you haul a boat without liability insurance. Talk to an insurance agent. $500 seems about right. $1500 sounds criminal.
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Old 13-10-2015, 08:48   #33
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

If its coming with an outboard, check that. Start it up, let it run for 10 minutes at idle. Rev it. Make sure the PEE stream is strong. Ask if they ran it with ethanol gas.

If the motor is shot, it will be an additional $1200 to $1800 for a new one. Remember that wind sailing is 60% slow motor sailing. If you don't have a functional motor, or two, you won't like what happens to you out on the water in either sudden very rough weather or sudden zero wind for hours on end as it get dark.

And if it didn't come with one then a new 6 HP Tohatsu Sail-pro from a dealer is going to cost you $1800. And unless you are a motor mechanic, then you should spring for the extra $250 to get it from a dealer and not mail-order. A certain percentage have issues from the factory, and you don't want to have to go looking for a dealer to fix something you didn't buy from him/her.
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Old 13-10-2015, 08:54   #34
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
For a $5000 boat?

Read this several times. Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey
Print out the checklist
Do your own survey.
You can do your own survey, or pay someone to do it for you.
You need either knowledge or money. Pick one.

For the record, I've never had a survey when buying a boat.
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Old 13-10-2015, 08:55   #35
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

My intent is not to discredit anyone on this forum who is a surveyor but offer ,what I believe, a much better approach to determine the integrity of a vessel which is to hire independent contractors to look at various components of your prospective boat: a marine mechanic to check the engine and drivetrain; a "glass man" to check the structural integrity of the hull, stringers, decks, keel, rudder and cabintop; a rigger to check your mast, boom and standing rigging and a marine electrician to check your wiring. I believe this is a far more thorough approach to employ specialists rather than to employ a generalist to do the inspection. And, a book value provided by a surveyor for a boat in this price range may not be really reliable or accurate since so much depends upon condition, equipment and what you can buy for $5000. The total cost of these services should be no more than a fairly priced survey: $400-$500. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 13-10-2015, 08:58   #36
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

I would join those who say to shop for a more reasonable surveyor. A less expensive approach would be to hire different experts to check the main systems- engine, rigging/sails, electrical. I suspect you could get these for about $150 each plus the yard's haul out fees. But before anything else you need to educate yourself - read, search the net, ask friends and acquaintances. Be aware at the price you indicated, there almost has to be significant issues. So take your time, educate yourself and enjoy the process. This said, I assume you have already have a fix on the economics of owning a sail boat. If not you need to begin there. Trailer or slip? Day sail or overnight cruises? Budget, etc. Best of luck on your adventure, I hope you enjoy it.
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Old 13-10-2015, 09:01   #37
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

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Originally Posted by AlwaysFORSAIL View Post
You will need a survey to get insurance to dock or moor just about everywhere. Some yards won't let you haul a boat without liability insurance. Talk to an insurance agent. $500 seems about right. $1500 sounds criminal.
There is now insurance available for older sailboats with no survey required. This new type of "express" policy is mainly liability, and pays out very little for the loss of the boat itself (market value based on their numbers), or for damage, and does not cover personal property aboard.

I purchased through HARBOUR INSURANCE in Toronto and it was underwritten by Pacific Marine. 40+ year old boat with no survey. Had proof of insurance in 10 minutes via email after paying by credit card. I did my due diligence, and its legit.
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Old 13-10-2015, 10:03   #38
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

The Marina and the insurance co. made me get an out of water survey. It only cost about 350. I was glad I did it because the surveyor gave me much valuable info on the condition of the boat and he gave me a list of what needed the most attention
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Old 13-10-2015, 10:10   #39
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
For a $5000 boat?

Read this several times. Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey
Print out the checklist
Do your own survey.
Estimate how much it will cost to bring the defects to a seaworthy condition
(for $5000 - there will be defects)
Decide it it is worth the final cost to you.
^^^^^ THIS.
For local use and that size boat your auto insurer will likely insure it without a survey.
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Old 13-10-2015, 10:20   #40
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Paraphrasing: Any amateur who does his own survey has a fool for a surveyor.
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Old 13-10-2015, 10:25   #41
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Expect to put in an additional $2000 getting all the stuff you need to sail. You will probably want to replace all the rigging, and you will need clothing and PFDs and endless stuff. Take the coast Guard Aux Course since it will tell you what you need.

We bought a West Wight Potter 19 in excellent condition, but the stuff we had to buy was enormous. Eventually we sprang for $350 of repairs to a motor which eventually died and had to be replaced for $1800. We turned out to need a new dinghy to get out to the mooring. We had to pay for the mooring at $1000.

What you pay for the boat is probably 1/2 of what you are going to need to put in to sail her and get out on the water.

And since that boat is not staying in your front yard in the winter, you have pulling out costs, and putting in costs, and hull painting costs, etc.

There will be times when you wish you never talked yourself into this project. And heaven forbid your first few sails are very difficult, your motor dies out in the bay, and the coast guard has to rescue you.
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Old 13-10-2015, 10:32   #42
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Before purchasing, I self-surveyed our boat (offered at $4k), found some defects and got the price down to under $3k. I felt confident in doing this because I'm fairly practical and I was willing to risk $3k on my own judgement. In this case it worked out quite well.

We were able to insure it right away with an agreed $5k replacement value, but about 6 years later the insurer demanded an out-of-water survey. Without this survey, they'd still insure for liability only AND it would cost MORE.

I got some quotes from a few surveyors, all accredited, and the prices ranged from $260 to over $400, and some surveyors wanted travel costs as well. I'm not ashamed to admit that I chose the least-expensive surveyor, because the survey was to satisfy the insurer, not me, and because after 6 years I had done alot of work to the boat and knew it pretty well. Nonetheless the surveyor still found a couple of things for me to improve, so I got some useful feedback too. And I now have a document to wave if the boat ever gets stolen.

For a larger and more expensive boat, I think I would make the purchase conditional on a favourable survey and hire the good surveyor at $400, because the financial and personal risk is greater.
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Old 13-10-2015, 12:53   #43
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

I was forced to get a survey after I bought the boat to satisfy my insurance agent and so my marina for liability. If you have to insure check around to see the reqs of your insurer. I paid $10/foot for an in the water survey- three and a half hours- and found the info well worth it. H-28 modified staysail ketch- wood- 1966.
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Old 13-10-2015, 13:26   #44
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

The 1975 Atomic 4 is gasoline, not diesel. If well maintained, that is not a problem. The 1972 raw salt water cooled Atomic 4 on our son's Pearson 30 is still running great, and you can get rebuild parts and know-how from Don Moyer, the wizard at Moyer Marine.
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Old 13-10-2015, 13:36   #45
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Re: Should I Pay to Survey a $5k Boat?

Looks like a nice boat. Good luck with the survey.
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