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Old 01-01-2014, 12:39   #106
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

Sail material mostly comes from the US and Japan. The fabric acquired here in a lot of cases and shipped to Hong Kong where the fittings are made and all the other materials besides fabric. It's then shipped to mainland China where the most expensive part of the operation is achieved, (labor). Then it's back to the sailor where ever it is ordered. This is pretty much how almost all suppliers do it.
It works. No one can compete with the wages in China so if you buy in the USA likely this is how the sail was made regardless.
Unless you see someone sew it together... That sail would run far more than most boats I owned. New Zealand has some good lofts and they take great pride in their work and that is a viable option. If you are spending over 2 grand look at other options first. If it's a racing sail… Well, money is no option.
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:40   #107
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

The topic of buying sails in China reflects more than location but one's personal concept of buying. I think Smurphy has stated his position very articulately to the political side of this issue and I would agree with his remarks completely. The usual throng of America bashers (you know who you are) blame everything on us Americans from the burgeoning world population to global warming-- it is a camp and tired song sung to a well indoctrinated audience. But, to return to the subject-- for those who truly understand business, a buyer falls into two categories: Quality and Price. Yes, of course, there are always the shadings of grey but a business' marketing strategy must consider their market. Is quality the first consideration for the buyer or is price. That is why you have stores like Macy's and Walmart. The people who want quality will rarely find it at Walmart, but they will find attractive prices. Those who shop at Macy's may not always get the best price on an item, but they will get quality. And, it is not strictly an economic consideration(how much money you have) but rather the desire of a buyer to buy the best or the cheapest product. A prospective sailor who chooses to buy a twenty year old used Hallberg Rassy for the same price as someone who buys a new 45 foot Hunter understands this concept. So, do you choose to buy Chinese sails on-line or through a sail loft for a greatly reduced price where materials and craftsmanship are questionable or do you buy from a respected sailmaker who uses quality materials coupled with excellent workmanship and will be there to work out any problems you have with his product after the sale? It's not just about price. It's really about the type of buyer you are: Quality or Price? An old American folk saying about quality and price says: When buying oats there are two prices. The first is for those that are fresh and clean and they command a fair price. And then there are those that have already been through the horse--and that is a completely different matter. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 06-01-2014, 13:23   #108
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

The sails I've seen that were Chinese made were very minimally constructed, small cringles, very little reinforcement in high stress areas etc. As with all things made in China (and elsewhere to a large extent), the middle man gets what he asks for. If the middle man wants to maximize profit and sell cheap... you aint gonna get much. I wonder if anyone is selling chinese made sails to a high expectation? I think so... aren't many US "Name BRands" now constructed in China?
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Old 06-01-2014, 17:09   #109
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Good thread on world politics etc. Can't understand the thread drift into sails though.

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Old 07-01-2014, 18:24   #110
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
The topic of buying sails in China reflects more than location but one's personal concept of buying. I think Smurphy has stated his position very articulately to the political side of this issue and I would agree with his remarks completely. The usual throng of America bashers (you know who you are) blame everything on us Americans from the burgeoning world population to global warming-- it is a camp and tired song sung to a well indoctrinated audience. But, to return to the subject-- for those who truly understand business, a buyer falls into two categories: Quality and Price. Yes, of course, there are always the shadings of grey but a business' marketing strategy must consider their market. Is quality the first consideration for the buyer or is price. That is why you have stores like Macy's and Walmart. The people who want quality will rarely find it at Walmart, but they will find attractive prices. Those who shop at Macy's may not always get the best price on an item, but they will get quality. And, it is not strictly an economic consideration(how much money you have) but rather the desire of a buyer to buy the best or the cheapest product. A prospective sailor who chooses to buy a twenty year old used Hallberg Rassy for the same price as someone who buys a new 45 foot Hunter understands this concept. So, do you choose to buy Chinese sails on-line or through a sail loft for a greatly reduced price where materials and craftsmanship are questionable or do you buy from a respected sailmaker who uses quality materials coupled with excellent workmanship and will be there to work out any problems you have with his product after the sale? It's not just about price. It's really about the type of buyer you are: Quality or Price? An old American folk saying about quality and price says: When buying oats there are two prices. The first is for those that are fresh and clean and they command a fair price. And then there are those that have already been through the horse--and that is a completely different matter. Good luck and good sailing.
Guilty as charged. It's not that I'm anti-Chinese. I'm anti propaganda as to the supposed quality. I'm tired of hearing people tell me that China is innovative and can (if they choose) to produce fine products. I've never seen them. I will add also that anyone here under 45, has grown up with nothing but Chinese imports. I'm an American/Canadian Tool maker. That title says a lot about who I am and my obsessiveness towards accuracy and quality. My HR is almost 40 years old. It still has a few of it's original sails(from Sweden). Rust stained and grey from use, yes. But their shape, stitching and hardware has at least 60% left in them.
For my other boats I have owned, I buy Hood sails. They have their own looms and make their own material. Ted Hood started out as a sail maker in the early 40's. His father invented Dacron and you know the rest of that story. He built all the America Cup sails from 1958 to 1977. Please let me know how involved the Chinese have been to the Yachting community other than slipping money from our pockets. So go ahead and save a few bucks on sails and have them last 10 years or less. I just received a quote for a main and 120% jib...$5100 and if I order in the winter, 20% off, so, $4100. I might be able to buy import sails for as little as $3200 but it would be a stupid move on my part.
From a moral stand-point (good grief, me moral?) I want to stop feeding the giant. They own us and we have become dependent on their loans. Not wanting to get political but...as we get in deeper and deeper, they could pull the rug on us. They have begun to buy up many high-tech manufacturing facilities through-out the US. I'm sure abroad too.
If I want to save money owning a boat, I do my own glassing, my own engine work and my own electrical and plumbing. I do it because I can. I was raised in an era where people actually worked with their hands in order to make a living. Not the paper-pushers and bean counters we educate now. As manufacturing went off-shore, our ability to train young people as innovators and skilled manufacturers went with it. It really is a crying shame.

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The sails I've seen that were Chinese made were very minimally constructed, small cringles, very little reinforcement in high stress areas etc. As with all things made in China (and elsewhere to a large extent), the middle man gets what he asks for. If the middle man wants to maximize profit and sell cheap... you aint gonna get much. I wonder if anyone is selling chinese made sails to a high expectation? I think so... aren't many US "Name BRands" now constructed in China?
I worked for a sailmaker in Northern Ca. in the 90's setting up his awning end of the business. I watched him go from adamantly defending his quality over import sails to importing sail from them and changing his tune. His profit was greater and since he had a loft could (and did all the time) rework the screw-ups. He made Indy-Car pit banners and focused on that as it far out-weighed profits from sail making.
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Old 08-01-2014, 10:18   #111
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

"I'm tired of hearing people tell me that China is innovative and can (if they choose) to produce fine products. I've never seen them. ..."
You've never seen an I Phone? IPad? Most any LCD TV? One of three parts on an American Car parts is Chinese made. The list is endless....
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Old 08-01-2014, 10:58   #112
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

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"I'm tired of hearing people tell me that China is innovative and can (if they choose) to produce fine products. I've never seen them. ..."
You've never seen an I Phone? IPad? Most any LCD TV? One of three parts on an American Car parts is Chinese made. The list is endless....
China did not conceive one of those parts, they merely mimic the manufacturing as outlined by the companies that design them. Apple has had tons of issues with manufacturing before shipping and after. Please don't get me going on the reliability of American cars and the nik-naks in them from China.
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:03   #113
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

He mean China mainland Cheechako, china design, china manufacture, china labour, china idea!! Iphones are designed outside and made it in China, where is the topic about china diesel engines and a poor fella with one of this things seized with few hours in the meter??

Last year we order a mainsail from Lee sails for a bene 50, the sail is well made , full battem, and im sure is doing a nice job for few years, now about rigging stuff, for me is a no no, not even a single togle, the 1 question here in the rigging shop when we have a customer asking for a Quote to replace the rigging is where we buy the wire, Belgium, we order the wire in Belgium, marine shops are full of china trash in the way of shackles , chain, screws, bolts etc... a wichard forged shackle cost a small fortune compared for a few bucks china shackle, the china one rust badly, deform and break under load and can be cracked soon... sails yes , rigging nop....
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:05   #114
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

"...they merely mimic the manufacturing as outlined by the companies that design them..."
I think that is the whole point, the Chinese, or anyone else, will make the quality you want, but you'd better specify it and require it. Chinese parts prevail on many cars made , not just USA named cars. If you think Apple has problems with new products.. take a look at the history of the Boeing 787!

I just think it's a shame we dont require a level playing field, Chinese parts prevail because they can do all the polluting they want and other things.
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:09   #115
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
"...they merely mimic the manufacturing as outlined by the companies that design them..."
I think that is the whole point, the Chinese, or anyone else, will make the quality you want, but you'd better specify it and require it. Chinese parts prevail on many cars made , not just USA named cars. If you think Apple has problems with new products.. take a look at the history of the Boeing 787!

I just think it's a shame we dont require a level playing field, Chinese parts prevail because they can do all the polluting they want and other things.
Do you have any idea of the amount of parts in a 787 compared to a Chinese part? Not a very good comparison. Look...If you want to buy Chinese, go for it. I stand by my previous posts.
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:19   #116
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

Communication I found was the only problem I had. What you order is what you get. They don't seem to offer any help if you make a mistake that is what you get. I had no idea what I was doing but figured I could through the first set out and order a second set and still come out a few dollars ahead. Other than that I was very pleased with both the main and head sails. Am working on a new set now knowing a little more making that second set more likely and still having hard time communicating.
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Old 08-01-2014, 14:09   #117
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

No matter how long a Chinese family has immigrated to the US they are still perceived as Chinese. When someone says "It's not that I'm racist" it sounds about as truthful as Nixon saying he wasn't "I'm a crook."
The points that come to mind right away are easily said but it is not my intention to pull covers off just be truthful.
Why not say "you get what you pay for" but to say all chinese craftspeople are "cheap or inferior is in fact a racist statement and if they were citizens here in the US and still looked Chinese I have little doubt the bigotry would end.
So, getting beyond the provincial I am not at all anti American but I am trying not to be anti Chinese. It is difficult for it is in our nature.
There is a great inaccuracy in the statement "Just to save a few bucks" I have seen American prices 10 times as much as those in China and I have not seen a poor quality of workmanship but I can only qualify my opinion in the limited composite of a sailor. I am no sail maker and have enormous respect for the profession. It is highly technical and I wish we had people making valid argument and not emotionally based opinion. When we say American made, it could mean "cheap" too. Not that I saw bad work in America but I have not seen "cheap" work from China either and as I mentioned, if an American sail maker sees the buyer is more interested in the cost than a technical racing sail they are not below ordering the sail, the labor or the hardware from China. In fact that occurs most often.
I want American sail makers to succeed and to survive but any craftsman is only as good as his company policy. Most sails are made in China and maybe the sad truth is they all will be soon. But to say Main land China makes everyone the same quality crafts person IS A MISTRUTH.
We compared a 30,000 dollar American racing main, to a Chinese made cruising sail and it is true it lacked the layering but the thimbles were far superior the material the same. We came away with the knowledge they both had good sound practices but the Chinese sail was 1300 dollars. I could tell you what the American sail company was but I don't know if they would like that. The Chinese sail was a 'Lee' sail. Lee sails have been around longer than all of us put together and have a fine reputation and are located in Hong Kong.
No one in their right mind says the whole county makes nothing but cheap stuff that sucks and ALL American products are the very best.

My step dad had his ship sunk under him during the war by the Japanese and no one I knew hated them more. When he bought an American made 'Eagle' to get out of the gas guzzling luxury cars he previously.
He was disappointed it rattled so much. It was under warrantee so they went through it over and over till finally they located the problem. It was a beer can a worker hid in the frame.
When it spun a bearing at 1600 miles on the odometer he had it fixed and sold it. Went down and bought a Maxima and was very impressed. He told me they called him from Tokyo to ask him how he liked it. That really impressed him. Well he died this year but I assure you that car is still going.
Words don't win olympic medals, people do. I always hear it's asian this or that like when I took a back hoe arm in for a weld. "Should have bought yourself an American tractor." the man in line said. Well I could tell them Kabota farmed out the back hoe arm to an American manufacturer but whats the use.
I get passed in my car all the time when driving to my boat by egotistical young males who far exceed the speed limit. Then I see them at the next light. One day a fella says: "Why don't you buy an American car?
I know better than to ask for a fight by answering such a manner challenged individual but as a matter of fact my Subaru is manufactured here in the US, designed in Germany and made by a Japanese company.
There are no cars or trucks made completely here.
It seemed to me that also there was a reference to a older boat vs. a new one and so on. The Hunter company was started by a German immigrant with his sons…
I suspect I will get a lot of crud for not buying an old American GRP made in the Seattle area but I feel I am a good judge and thus far see no issues I won't take on to the old gal going. When you literally replace almost everything there are non of the surprises you have with a new boat and the lessor the taxes.
The whole issue of buying American is made around the idea we are an island. My wife is a kiwi my toilet American, my dog is a Mexican national-Chihuahua.When you figure it all out I will be sailing writing an American book on the deaf.
It isn't whether Americans will fail at manufacturing, it's a matter of what that failure will appear like. I think it already happened. it's just a matter of whether you get in on the bargains that cost us our work force or pretend we are a bubble. Using the same attitude we would not be able to buy anything in Samoa.
I am a pragmatist so excuse me if I choose to believe your motives are not in line with logic. You did not qualify your obvious displeasure at sails from China whether you bought or were in anyway directly involved in a purchase or the fabrication of sails. I see no content yet to any of your argument that China does not sell or make a quality product. I will confine my opinion to what I know which is Lee sails and not pool billions of people into the "slacker" category. Each person is unique and to make such a general realization like you bought a sail from all the lofts in China is likely not the case.
I personally will not, (if legal) spend more than I have budgeted for sails. I love my old sailboat and am not interested in a new hunter or believe it a sound choice because of brand names. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it would be nice to know how you based it. There is evidence to the contrary. Thoughts on Lee sails - SailNet Community
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Old 08-01-2014, 15:44   #118
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitsthebill View Post

Why not say "you get what you pay for" but to say all chinese craftspeople are "cheap or inferior is in fact a racist statement and if they were citizens here in the US and still looked Chinese I have little doubt the bigotry would end.

There is a great inaccuracy in the statement "Just to save a few bucks" I have seen American prices 10 times as much as those in China


But to say Main land China makes everyone the same quality crafts person IS A MISTRUTH.
We compared a 30,000 dollar American racing main, to a Chinese made cruising sail and it is true it lacked the layering but the thimbles were far superior the material the same. We came away with the knowledge they both had good sound practices but the Chinese sail was 1300 dollars. No one in their right mind says the whole county makes nothing but cheap stuff that sucks and ALL American products are the very best.

My step dad had his ship sunk under him during the war by the Japanese and no one I knew hated them more. When he bought an American made
I personally will not, (if legal) spend more than I have budgeted for sails. I love my old sailboat and am not interested in a new hunter or believe it a sound choice because of brand names. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it would be nice to know how you based it. There is evidence to the contrary. Thoughts on Lee sails - SailNet Community
Ok...I've cut away most of the absurd rant to try and address a few strange points you're trying to make.
First, why is it that when ever anyone want to talk about another country in any frame of text, they're somehow rasist. Yukoslovia produced the Yugo. It was the worst nightmare of a car. Oil leaked through the aluminum casting. Engines blew up at 1000 miles. Am I racist? The Italian Fiat 128 that had drive trains literally fall off. Junk cars. Am I prejudice towards Italians? I find the word racist extremely offensive and rather over-used by people. If you want to say some one is biased, fine. That is way closer to reality than to call someones opinion based on race. Most likely, as I stated earlier, you grew up with Chinese imports.
Lets also focus that the OP asked a question regarding Sails and rigging made in China. So lets talk about that rather than cars, odometers or what ever side road we go. To make a silly point, you want to compare a $30,000 US sail to a $1300 Chinese sail. Is that how you make your points? Come on...really. I had given hard numbers of my Hood quote vs. import sails which was $4100 vs. $3200. So for an extra $900, that's going to break your bank? It's approximately 25% more for a sail that will at least last twice as long.
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Old 08-01-2014, 16:45   #119
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

I have lived and worked in China for the last 10 years in both manufacturing and logistics.If anyone thinks China can not manufacture quality gear ,almost anything,or only copy others I am sorry to say you are mistaken.But to get that quality it sometimes is only marginally cheaper than your home country due to material and transport costs.
On the topic of aircraft some of the A 320 Airbus parts are produced in China and some of the planes are assembled in Tianjin.
Sails and rigging why wouldn't you buy from China if it was at a much lower cost if you knew the quality was what you wanted.Do you really know what materials,thread and hardware your local guy is using.
Personally I am all for buying as much local as I can but these days there are far too many traders and points of sale involved between the various bits to make anything and the final product for retail sale plus of course the desire of too many to make too much profit.
Just yesterday after some research I decided to buy a Makita sander/polisher to do some jobs around the house and boat.You guys in the US are paying under $200 for the specific model purchased the best I could get here given the timeframe was just under $400 and what country do you think actually makes /produces it.
Another example was I recently used some frequent flyer points to purchase an $800 dollar Seiko watch it arrived in the post nicely boxed and saying made in Japan all over the packaging and literature but a tiny sticker on the back of the watched in very small print announced assembled in China.Not saying its a knockoff just the way it is.
Patriotism and the desire to buy home grown aside some quality stuff comes from China and the like and it increasingly difficult in this global village to get something fully manufactured in this country and Im sure most first world countries.
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Old 08-01-2014, 16:54   #120
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Re: Sails and Rigging Made in China

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I have lived and worked in China for the last 10 years in both manufacturing and logistics.If anyone thinks China can not manufacture quality gear ,almost anything,or only copy others I am sorry to say you are mistaken.But to get that quality it sometimes is only marginally cheaper than your home country due to material and transport costs.
On the topic of aircraft some of the A 320 Airbus parts are produced in China and some of the planes are assembled in Tianjin.
Sails and rigging why wouldn't you buy from China if it was at a much lower cost if you knew the quality was what you wanted.Do you really know what materials,thread and hardware your local guy is using.
Personally I am all for buying as much local as I can but these days there are far too many traders and points of sale involved between the various bits to make anything and the final product for retail sale plus of course the desire of too many to make too much profit.
Just yesterday after some research I decided to buy a Makita sander/polisher to do some jobs around the house and boat.You guys in the US are paying under $200 for the specific model purchased the best I could get here given the timeframe was just under $400 and what country do you think actually makes /produces it.
Another example was I recently used some frequent flyer points to purchase an $800 dollar Seiko watch it arrived in the post nicely boxed and saying made in Japan all over the packaging and literature but a tiny sticker on the back of the watched in very small print announced assembled in China.Not saying its a knockoff just the way it is.
Patriotism and the desire to buy home grown aside some quality stuff comes from China and the like and it increasingly difficult in this global village to get something fully manufactured in this country and Im sure most first world countries.
Chris
Thanx for that. It's nice to know that you have boots on the ground (1st hand) experience. It sounds like things have come a long ways. as far as materials. The reason I go with Hood is they have their own looms and 60 years of experience...plus, I have someone to send it to if there was ever a problem.
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