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Old 22-07-2010, 21:30   #196
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Feral Cement - did you take into account the high tax rate?
Nope - good call. Stay 7 or 8 months, not 6, to cover taxes and pay down that CC and other debts.

John
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Old 22-07-2010, 23:15   #197
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you know why i love you guys? ...
it's because while there's been some spirited debate about the wisdom with which i've gone about making this happen, but NO ONE has suggested that the trip's not worth taking..."
Hi, there, kb, this is from Ann,

Jim has steadfastly declined to become involved in this one, but both of us are interested. Possibly the reason people who are committed to mainstream life as practiced in the US freak out about people going cruising and staying with the lifestyle is that it is basically antithetical to their entire value system. Granted, there is tolerance for a "vacation on the water" or a 2 yr. sabbatical leave (many'd question it at your age), but when your choice for you is so different from their choices, the perceived "all of you are wrong" is threatening on the face of it.

Once one has accepted that one wants to opt out, and develop a new lifestyle, lots of doors can open. It's all interactive: you interact with your new cruising lifestyle, and you shape it and change it, and are changed yourselves. Exercise your creativity and flexibility and both of you will have a marvelous time.

re: 2nd question of your OP, yes, we, too, have known some [wonderful] young cruisers who completed 6-8 yr. circumnavigations, and ALL of them were really low budget folks, usually with vessels between 20 and 30 ft. in length. Most of them worked along the way and found that an interesting way to interact with foreign cultures.

Ann Cate, s/v Insatiable II, lying Manly, Qld
hey ann,

i almost PM'd you on this one (just to avoid the commentary from the peanut gallery: "escapism! gotcha!! AND you owe money... MAN are you dumb!"), but i figgered the public post might be worth offering up, just in case others who are in my shoes (or contemplating buying a pair just like 'em) are interested in the thought process.

there are a few points you touched on that struck a nerve for me.

first, the concept of the "sabbatical". i'm not really interested in succumbing to the value system of those i see around me here in the bay area, and i'm hugely frustrated with myself at the extent to which i've capitulated to the "marin mentality" already. when i read over the journals i've kept through the years, it throws into sharp relief the contrast between the person i was and the person i'm becoming. call it escapism if you must, but i don't really want to do this anymore. i'm not sure what that means exactly... money is a reality, and i know i've gotta make some one way or the other, so that's a hurdle i recognize i'll have to overcome. but, it's part of why i haven't considered the "reentry" plan all that much. that's not to say necessarily that cruising is the answer - i've never done it before, so what do i know... but it's a sharp break from the routine we're in now. it shakes things up tremendously, and it's all but inconceivable to me to imagine that the pieces will all land back exactly as they are.

so second, your point about doors opening. i own a place in nicaragua (part of where the money i managed to piss away went). a dream of ours has been to move down there full time for awhile now, but i can never exactly figure out how to make it work financially. the advice i've gotten from pretty much all my expat friends down there is "you'll never figure it out until you get here - come, stick around for awhile and something will pop up". when i think about the people i've met traveling and the opportunities that have just sort of spontaneously popped up, it does seem possible that during the course of this cruise, we'll find that new possibility... another engineering job in new zealand, interning on a marine research vessel, maybe just housesitting for a few years for some dude i meet on the beach who's making other plans... who knows? the likelihood of that alternate reality coming to fruition during the course of my everyday routine here seems much more far fetched.

finally, you mentioned that you can shape your experience and let it shape who you become. i've already mentioned this, but i really can feel a shift in myself over the last several years that i've been seriously committed to the 9-5 thing, and i can't say i care for it. there's a thread circulating around here somewhere where the OP posted a link to pictures from the BP spill. it was a pretty powerful jolt for me, and made me realize that i just don't care about what i'm doing right now - i'm engineering little plastic housings that we pump out by the thousands using whatever oil hasn't already spilled into the gulf. i want to make a positive difference in the world, and the value that i'm placing on my paycheck has prevented me from doing that until now. i went straight from highschool to college without much thought, and had an internship at the company i'm working for now before i graduated. point being that i've never actually had to sit down and consider what it is that i really want to do with my life. i'm counting on this cruise to help me start to piece that together, and i trust that i'll reconnect with that person i started out wanting to be.

anyhow, thanks for the post - it was thought provoking (as evidenced).

saltymonkey and jallum, feel free to have at it.
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Old 22-07-2010, 23:19   #198
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If they offer you a job after the takeover and you don't want it Ill take it..
watch office space.

then watch it again.

then take out all the funny parts.

if you still want it, i'll give you a GREAT recommendation
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Old 23-07-2010, 02:46   #199
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Lots of good reading and sound comments here on the last two or so pages.


Thanks to you who has contributed, I really enjoy the read!

If it's of interest to anyone, I can verify that one doesn't have to be rich, in terms of money/bank account/assets to go cruising.

We are on an open-ended cruise since over a year, our savings are about the same amount as the market value of the boat so will keep us going for 4-5 years on a low, but not -according to our values- poor budget.

If we would have had 4 times as much money saved up, we wouldn't have bought a bigger boat anyway...(maybe my girlfriend would)...cause we appreciate the simplicity of a well-built, tough and -by today's standards- small boat. The boat is built in the mid 60ies, rock solid, and we have refitted, and renovated it from the keel to the masthead. It's been said before, but its a huge boost to once confidence and peace of mind to do that kind of work one self even set aside the financial benefits.

For my own part, I am very much looking forward to working somewhere, sometime down the road. It has to be the best way to get in touch with the locals on a 'real life' basis and it provides you with crusing founds too.

BTW , I love the Pardey's expression - 'freedom chips'- to mee that's exactly what it is. It's not a burden to do some work when you know what you can do with the money you save.

Best regards & fair winds to everyone who dare to cast off the docking lines
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Old 23-07-2010, 06:10   #200
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first, the concept of the "sabbatical". i'm not really interested in succumbing to the value system of those i see around me here in the bay area, and i'm hugely frustrated with myself at the extent to which i've capitulated to the "marin mentality" already. when i read over the journals i've kept through the years, it throws into sharp relief the contrast between the person i was and the person i'm becoming. call it escapism if you must, but i don't really want to do this anymore. i'm not sure what that means exactly... money is a reality, and i know i've gotta make some one way or the other, so that's a hurdle i recognize i'll have to overcome. but, it's part of why i haven't considered the "reentry" plan all that much. that's not to say necessarily that cruising is the answer - i've never done it before, so what do i know... but it's a sharp break from the routine we're in now. it shakes things up tremendously, and it's all but inconceivable to me to imagine that the pieces will all land back exactly as they are.
<snip>

i'm counting on this cruise to help me start to piece that together, and i trust that i'll reconnect with that person i started out wanting to be.
KB,
just wanted to say that your post touches on what it is that drew us here too. As the round peg, we're not fitting into the square hole so well anymore. I guess we'll all see what life brings us, eh? lol
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Old 23-07-2010, 06:39   #201
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So Salty Monkey, you have a hero worship styled preference for scroungers, an apparently strong dislike of catamaran sailors and don't appreciate the very capitalists who make your armchair. Trust me Salty Monkey licking your boots is the last thing on their to do list.

At any rate KB, rich or poor, just get out there (without turning it into a class war). Learn, grow, screw up, scrounge if you like, have some fun, have some kids aboard, you are certainly smart enough to figure out how to secure some additional capital if that really becomes your limiting factor. I went out for 6 months once with < $500 but that was in a very small boat and a long time ago in Mexico. Trust me it is a lot more fun to cruise with some capital.
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Old 23-07-2010, 08:39   #202
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It's been said, it's all relative. I've been in both abundant and desperate times, and when you are put into circumstances where you can no longer finance a trip to the zoo, you take a fresh look at what's important .

Those with high(er) salaries are often very attached to their material possessions. I'm sure they will disagree with me, but I invite them to post what type of car they drive when they respond, or how many times a month they go out for a meal. If you want to live aboard, you make it happen. It may not happen on that new Hunter 45 Deck Salon Cruiser you've got your eye on... but if your goal is to be on the water, and live THAT lifestyle, you just have to want it bad enough. If you "can't" in the near future then you're already mentally set up to stay where you're at because you just haven't reached a point in your life where this option and all of its benefits overrule the comforts that come with attachment. Not that that is bad, everyone wants different things, and it's whatever makes you happy in the end.

Personally? I think taking my daughter and reinventing life aboard is the best thing I could do for her. And I'm making it happen, and my budget will not be fluffy, and we will have to go without. But guess what, this blurb is my "smoke break", because I don't smoke, and now I have to go back to my life in my 80F office (which continues to suck my lifeforce) and finish compiling a jacked up year-end and file thier corporate and personal return (I'm an acccountant). This won't always be the case... I have a budget for next year that says so.

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Old 23-07-2010, 08:43   #203
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I went out for 6 months once with < $500 but that was in a very small boat and a long time ago in Mexico. Trust me it is a lot more fun to cruise with some capital.
Interestingly, I went out with about that little money when I was a 19-year-old kid. Then when well-capitalized around age 40. Then recently got back into it in my 50's after being pretty much wiped out by the recession. So I've taken two sabbaticals in a small boat with a little money, and one in a big boat with a lot of money.

I sort of had a different experience than Sailor Vee. Strangely enough, I can't really say having more money made it more fun. It just made it more expensive. Go figure. I think I'm being honest with myself, and this isn't just sour grapes.

I used to live in the Virgin Islands. I had a friend there who once lost his home and all his material possessions but the clothes on his back in a hurricane. Within a week, the guy who had bought his business back in the States went bankrupt. So my friend literally had nothing left but his wife and child. He told me it was the most free and happiest he ever felt in his life. He kept telling me to simplify, simplify. (This was back in my well-capitalized days.)

Well, I didn't have sense enough to follow his advice. But the recession finally helped me, and I'm beginning to think he was right.

There's a long thread out on this forum about cruising on $500 a month. Some people seem to be having a lot of fun doing that kind of thing. There's a lot of fun to be had in buying your comfortable dream boat with the big bucks you earned. But the real, honest, uncomfortable truth, at least in my case, is that it's more fun and more peaceful with less dough.

This is NOT meant as a criticism of anybody. Just my experience. I wonder if it will keep some young person out there from wasting too much time chasing money. I teach college kids for a living now. From that experience, I would say probably not. Somehow, that doesn't stop old guys from preaching.
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Old 23-07-2010, 09:44   #204
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special thanks to all of you offering stories proving that it can be done on less money.

and tia, suggesting that it can perhaps be done BETTER that way?! well, i love that idea!!
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Old 23-07-2010, 10:34   #205
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I always like these kind of discussion because it always draws out people to tell of their experiences....

We have lived in an 800 square foot home on a tiny 40 x 60 plot of land and a 2700 square foot home on 10 acres...I would never go back by choice...we are way happier in this one.

YMMV...same as boats..same as budget...said it before Ill repeat it hear...I don't love the sea enough to do it at all... unless I get to do it my way.

Im at peace with the world right now and I try to keep myself there...this is the main reason I'm self employed..Im not trying to escape from anything, Im already here....This is why I have no desire to sell all and go cruising...I dont want to sell anything.

I want to experience the cruising lifestyle but there are other lifestyles to experience if it doesn't work out.

Peace is a state of mind, not a ballance sheet....we seem to be broke all the time around here...construction is that way more famine then feast...We are use to it in a way...we manage to get buy and pray allot...It keeps us humble I guess and in a mode of always seeing other peoples needs as well as our own and if we can share what we have been blessed with and help a few people along the way we do.

A Better way?

That statement doesn't exist in reality...its only better for the person who's point of view your asking....IMHO there is no more powerful force given a man then Love..and a Love to succeed is something no one should try and "Teach" out of any young man.

Tia.. Im glad you were not my teacher...

Now teaching someone to be content with their lot in life at the moment and get through it...that is a different animal an the real trick.

Be content with what your able to control at the time and you will be a pretty healthy person in life.

Find your own content meter and keep it centered...its calibreated just for you.

The Jones live at both ends of the economic spectrum...Im not into keeping up with either one...
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Old 23-07-2010, 10:44   #206
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one advantage of less dough--ye get a cruising boat without bling and glitz, and the other boats in the anchorage are more appealing to the thieves and bad guys....mine dont shine----lol---i find the true nature of rats--shine attracts 'em....shiny wood rails, shiny hulls--new white crispy expensive sails----beautiful new lines and running rigging--sugar scoop transoms--lol--nice bright biminis and dodgers--everything calls out to those with less as a way of life to come get it---

i was always taught to not flaunt any sign of wealth as one travels. my family had a great history of traveling under sail--from mayflower--(had 8 families i run directly back to--lol-)-to the escape from ireland in potato famine days to starting and running and owning the great lakes shipping co .even to bringing the masons to chicago!!... to having a spoiled brat grandma who was sent to europe on steam ships to take care of her emotional distresses ..LOL...everyone has always told me to keep a low profile.
this low profile stuff CAN save your life.

when i first bought my first boat in 1990, the accepted practice was to get the boat, fix it, make it gorgeous, then slather latex paint over the shiny stuff to keep bad guys away. obviously, this tactic is no longer in use, as the ease of entry to sailboats and the glitz and shine added to all of the production boats is a calling out card...they call out to those without anything in their lives to come out and call on you--in their own way, and in ways we really dont want to know--sometimes isnt in your best interests .... so when you guys hear me hollering about the shiny big newness of a boat--is for this safety reason--we have lost track of the fact we sail into lesser privileged nations and sit there shiny and new while they sit there wishing---lol--what would you do !!
so. kids, if you really think that cruising is a proccess involving many dollars--is a situation in which you open you to more vulnerability and victimization. the folks who taught me had lotsabux. many millions of dollars. i dont have money--there were mitigating circumstances in probate--lol--executor ran to kali with the inheritance and spent it somewhere in downey kali area..lol....but i still have the training iwas given--one doesnt require financial phatness to survive--our family was broke after the theft..lol..duh--but we were a whole lot more happy--LOL---i got to sail instead of debut, so i was!!!! and still am!!! got the benefits of the elitist education and the practicality of the multimillionaire auntie(wife of a maj gen who just happened to be nelson rockefeller's excellent friend..LOL--got himself a decent job --chief of staff to a governor--LOL-)-so i dont come from scumdog background--i just appreciate the benefits of chameleonism in sailing community and the benefit of being able to sneak into an anchorage looking like i dont have the funding that the next boat over has--lol

the long story goes to the short statement --when you flaunt your personal well being in front of those with less good fortune, you will have a problem. as cruisers, we are doing just that--we get the biggest bestest shiniest boat and all the trimmings and go to these low income places with beauty and wealth of happiness and plenty of natural goodness and complain when we attract attention. we also cry and whine about having to eat "what THEY eat" ... LOL....what is wrong with us that we feel the need to do this kind of thing to those who reside in these places?? we donot need to do this?/ what happened to conscientious cruising?? is it passe?? wtf!!!!
the UGLY AMERICAN has re-risen, and takes the form of shinery and glitz in poorer places and the whine that they got robbed or pirated or wtf--lol---is not fun to read, as the ones who have gotten attacked, i have seen, have ALL owned the shiny glitzy sugar scoop transom for the kids /wifee that say "COME MESS WITH ME--I HAVE MONEY!!!!.....and the thieves and bad element who have been tested by the test of shine and failed--lol---i find this a problem. doesnt anyone else find this is a problem?? we have made this problem our own selves and now we want to compound it by taking money WITH us??
lol....keep it simple isnt only for the boat--is for prevention. is for the lifestyle that is going to be gone soon , as most folks have fallen into the more is better bag.
yes i have electronix. yes they are obvious. radar domes arent easy to hide lol...and are a sign of money--something to sell for income in a place wherein the folks survive on less than 100 dollars per year is not to be taken lightly.
we cause our expecnses to increase because , as we show off our glitz and frills, and as others relieve us of these frills and glitzy things, the cost of your cruise will rise as to cover the cost of the insurance lobby's failure to recognise your cruising grounds anymore--tooo many claims agaist them makes your area of sailing diminish to smalllll ---- can only go where your insurance company allows you to go for coverage--LOL---what kind of freedom is that? none.
is all good--shiny boats and glitz and stuff--lol--but --if you cruise with all that stuff and feathers. please park your boat near enough to mine to take the attractiveness away from the fact i am solo sailing on a 41 f t ketch..LOL--i WANT your glitz and frills near me to detract from my attractiveness--yours is the purrty one-- may they look at it harder than mine!!!! ... mine is fugly for a reason!!!! my reason beats high insurance rates and having to kiss the behind of a member of one of the largest reasons why we have such a huge government.(insurance lobby).
so , when you guys say it takes a lot of money to go cruising, is all your own doing and all your own rationales....everyone has different reasons for doing what they do--
i dont like approaches by fooogly boats--the ones with excessive dirt and mayhem--yipes---mine is just not shiny. shine attracts rats.
we can manage--each of us - to come up with a surprising amount of cash needed for cruising--each of us has a different wallet----mine is a bit flatter than yours and mine is filled with cobwebs at certain times, but there is spirit and spunk .. and a desire to do what i will be and have been doing under my own set of rules and in my own sweet time..LOL....that is freedom--also to sail to wherever i want to go --and see the treasures of this world before the great spills happen--and before the world 'splodes from overpopulation--cant wait for the water to rise!!!! i am ready!!!!

sorry 'bout length?? not really--but is long..my ADD took over lol...

AND what still raining said....
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Old 23-07-2010, 10:46   #207
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Old 23-07-2010, 10:48   #208
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Tia.. Im glad you were not my teacher...
Oh, you wouldn't have paid any attention to me anyway. Most of my students don't. Don't know why I waste my breath, but it's a true story.
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Old 23-07-2010, 10:49   #209
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The Jones live at both ends of the economic spectrum...Im not into keeping up with either one...
LOL!

R U A ReAl KrUiZer?
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Old 23-07-2010, 12:15   #210
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It was asked that people remain nice. That hasn't happened.

Thread closed.

As a note: Some of the not niceness has been deleted. It does keep circling back to it though.
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