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Old 04-05-2010, 09:40   #16
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Knowing next to nothing about Finland or the Caymans...I have to suspect one major flaw in your plans: Most island nations are rather tight about immigration and residency.

Will the Caymans ALLOW a Finn to come in on a work visa, establish residency, and practice law? (If you said Bermuda instead of the Caymans, you'd have to marry a citizen in order to move in!)

So...have you checked over that aspect of things? And employment prospects for that field, in the Caymans, as well?
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:51   #17
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I bought my first fixed keel around that age. I am 39 (as of yesterday!!), and though I am not completely retired or financially independent, I am pretty free to do what I want. It is attainable. The key is focus. I don't care how much money you make, it is what you have left over that counts. An important fact that will become more apparent as you get older.

When we cruised first time, we became very good friends with a fellow that was going to school as a nurse anisthesilogist (was already a RN as I recall). He was baout your age. Super guy and a lot of fun to go out with. He lived on a 3X foot Hunter and sailed it everywhere. He socked away all his money. After he finished school, he took off cruising with his money. No wife and no kids. He did it too. Now he did go back, but at his choosing.

I will just caution you that you will change a lot between 22 and 25. I did. Most people do. You also do not even know if you will enjoy living on a boat or sailing. A lot of people try it and love it... but more try it and hate it. I have seen both.

I would NEVER buy a 45 foot Cat for one person. What a pain in teh butt to take that thing out all the time, especially as a single hander. I have to single my 40 (have wife and kids, but it is pretty much just me as she keeps an eye on teh kiddos in general). I could single and have singeld larger boats, but do not enjoy it as much and would never have a boat that big if it were just me. That is my opinion. Something in the mid 30's, well built, monohull would probably be my preference. I have no problem with Cats, but depending on where you are based, getting a slip for them can be a challenge and very expensive. you get a lot more living space though... but I live on board with a fat bulldog, two kids, and my wife on a 40.

Good lord knows you will get a lot of advice. Some of it good. Some bad. Some neither. Listen to it, but make your own decision. In the end, it is your life and you have to live with the repercussions. Just approach boat ownership cautiously. THey are easy to buy and hard to get rid of. I would not trade it for the world... but others would and do. There are very few people that have actually lived and cruised on their boats continuously for years. Most get wary of it and move on to other adventures.

All the best,

Brian
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Old 04-05-2010, 15:29   #18
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be safe............and live the dream
ps. I want to be the one that doent pay taxes
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Old 04-05-2010, 16:38   #19
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Non semper erit aestas - I know! As a native Finnish I am quite used to shity weather. Storms and heavy rain fall wont bother me half as much as slush and winter days with only few hour of daylight. At the moment I am looking forward to it as a new experience / adventure, but I might change my mind after the first hurricane, will see.
I was less worried about you and more worried about any new boat you may purchase and have there. Hurricane parties and such things can be tons of fun especially if you meet some sweet young thing and she agrees that "we can't just die without having 'made whoopie'" or some such thing. However your new boat might not agree and depart the area without you - either vertically downward or horizontally for a shattering encounter with something hard.
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Old 04-05-2010, 17:59   #20
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I am not expecting it to earn money and I dont mind it not gaining value or even losing it as the plan is not to sell it but to sail it till the end. If I buy myself an apartment and pay interests for 6-7 years and then buy the boat and again pay interests for 6-7 years, I m not convinced that the aparment has gained enough value after 15 years to cover all the expenses. That is why I thought that it would be better idea to buy the boat right away and use it as my home, pay interests for 6-7, years and then invest all the money I make after that.
Let me be clear - I am not knocking your goal, or your plans per se. I wish that I had been equally as forward thinking and motivated when I was your age... If I had, I would have been thinking about retiring about now (43), but as it is, it was another 10 years before I even started to get my head around such things as "the future" and "financial security" (as opposed to "my next beer" and "hey, I haven't even been there before"), so its gonna be another 8-10 years before I can think about retiring (or semi-retiring).

My point was that if you are going to retire at 40, you are going to have to be particularly single-minded and ruthless about making your assets work for you. In the example of house versus boat, if you have 100k and borrow 300k, say, you can buy a 400k house or a 400k boat. If you live for 7 years and pay interest on the loan, after 7 years the house will be worth 600k and the boat will be worth 300k, for the same outlay... the house increased your net worth, the boat decreased your net worth (such is the way with boats). Also, the reality is that a boat costs a lot more to have than a house: The associated expenses such as insurance and maintenance will be way more on a boat.

I will give you a real world example... and it is a true example, because it is what happened to me. I bought a house; a fairly modest 2 bedroom place near the centre of the town I lived in and paid $115,000. I was a little lucky, because I bought when the market was relatively quiet. I owned that house for a bit less than 5 years. In that time I put 1 coat of paint on the outside, sanded and varnished the floors and did a little bit of work in tghe bathroom, but not a whole lot... total outlay might have been $3000-$4000 - certainly not renovations, just maintenance, really. Then, because the market was good, I sold it for $275,000. That would be a fairly good ROI (return on investment) any way you look at it

I bought a boat. I have had that boat for a bit less than 5 years. I paid $69,000 for it. I have spent about $35000 on it, and if I sold it now, and I was lucky, I might get $85,000 for it... maybe. That would be a bloody terrible ROI, any way you look at it.

If I had spent that money that I spent on the boat on assets that would have increased my wealth, I would have been a hell of a lot closer to retiring than I am. Sure; I'd be much less happy (because my boat makes me very happy), but financially, it doesn't even merit considering.

At the end of the day, I'm not even saying that you shouldn't buy a boat instead of a house, but what I am saying is that the reality is that if you do buy the boat, it will be longer, possibly significantly longer, before you own your boat, have a steady income from your assets and don't have to work any more.

And since latin seems to be the thing: Carpe carp! (seize the fish)
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Old 04-05-2010, 18:21   #21
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600k and get 40k per year........please tell me how
Good news: stock market averages 7% over the last 100 yrs.
Bad news: sometimes it takes 20 years to see that return.

If you invest in stock market, you have be willing to wait, and have money
in conservative investments (CDs, balance funds, etc) so you don't have to
sell low.

Over the past 10 years we're averaging around 4%, you be screwed if you
had to be taking money out of the market the past 2 years.
Tom
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Old 04-05-2010, 20:30   #22
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"Then, because the market was good, I sold it for $275,000. "
Keys words: market was good. Real estate has been so overhyped for so long, that many folks who bought homes 20 years ago, are now seeing they can barely get 60% of their initial money back if they sell them. A pile of bricks, bought in the wrong time and place, can just be a heavy pile of bricks to unload when it comes time to sell.
Not that boats are a great investment--but then again, you won't be paying any real estate taxes on the boat. Or water, sewage, school taxes either.
Gold, diamonds, stocks, bonds, real estate, you can lose money on all of them.
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Old 04-05-2010, 23:31   #23
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Don't wait. Go sailing now. Buy a 60-80,000 euro boat and make the remainder last as long as you can. Fifteen years from now you might have more money but:

-- there may be a collapse of a Cayman bank 14 years from now and you lose all your savings

-- your body will hurt. This is hard to imagine when your 22 but it really happens. You'll have a better time in a little boat now.

-- you may get seriously hurt or sick such that you need to stay near medical care.

-- you may have fallen in love with a woman who doesn't want to go to sea. Or who gets terribly seasick.

-- you may have kids and don't want to take them away from their friends and life

-- you may have grown used to a life with more money at hand and like being a lawyer ()

If you go sailing now - after five or ten years of sailing you can sell the boat and become a lawyer. You'll be able to make more money since you'll look older and be considerably smarter. You'll have no money but have had the adventure of a life time. There will still be plenty of time to make money - if that's what you want.

Carl
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:12   #24
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I think CarlF has given you some great advice. With a slight caveat: You're young, so why not work for a few years, buy a more modest boat and take a sabbatical to enjoy the sailing life for a year or two. You could probably do all that by 30. With any luck you'll meet the girl of your dreams and head back to land to prepare for another adventure in the future. Which may be sailing, career, marriage & kids or all of them in some wonderful combination.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:44   #25
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Well, one of the better "investments" I made was a 30-year-old boat that has kept its value since its purchase in 2007 as opposed to the hypothetical house that would have lost in value, significantly, in the same time period.

That's assuming I could sell the boat at all in this market (and I don't want to), but one could easily say the same about the hypothetical house.
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:41   #26
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Well, one of the better "investments" I made was a 30-year-old boat that has kept its value since its purchase in 2007 as opposed to the hypothetical house that would have lost in value, significantly, in the same time period.

That's assuming I could sell the boat at all in this market (and I don't want to), but one could easily say the same about the hypothetical house.
Very pretty boat indeed.

And I do agree that if you buy a great second hand boat and maintain it, it's value holds up quite well. Kind of reminds me of a German BMW advert for 'previously owned' cars featuring an absolutely stunning woman with the caption:

"You know you're not the first, but do you really care?"
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Old 12-05-2010, 15:14   #27
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Knowing next to nothing about Finland or the Caymans...I have to suspect one major flaw in your plans: Most island nations are rather tight about immigration and residency.

Will the Caymans ALLOW a Finn to come in on a work visa, establish residency, and practice law?
If I am able to find a job there, I will get a work permit as well. The Cayman Islands is not an independent state but a Brtitish overseas territory so immigration is not as difficult as it can be with some other island nations.

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I think CarlF has given you some great advice. With a slight caveat: You're young, so why not work for a few years, buy a more modest boat and take a sabbatical to enjoy the sailing life for a year or two. You could probably do all that by 30.
I have tought about that option as well, but my biggest fear is that the sabbath year will be too awesome and returning to work will suck twice as bad after that. That option would also be quite unbeneficial for my career development.

I will probably take a year off between my bachelor and master's degree and try to find myself a job in a crew or just hitchhike from an island to another. One year should give some feel and idea of how it feels to live in a boat.

Buying a second hand boat is definitely an option. I used my dad's advice to buy 2-4 years old car in the past and I was really happy with that choice. Maybe a 6-8 years old sailboat would have the best value? Even 25-35 years old boats seem to keep their value quite well when compared to cars for example, but most catamarans from that era are very different type of those that I am interested in. Sure they are probably faster, but if I am more interested in the living area and spaciouness as I am planning to use it for living.

That Tayana 37 sure is a pretty boat. If I choose e a monohull it will probably be something similar to Tayana, or maybe a some type of "modern schooner" (love their looks but not sure about practically). The problem is that I am not really a handy/technical person so spending ~$60k on a 30 years old boat, that probably needs plenty of self maintenance and on-the-go fixing, scares me.
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Old 12-05-2010, 22:24   #28
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The problem is that I am not really a handy/technical person so spending ~$60k on a 30 years old boat, that probably needs plenty of self maintenance and on-the-go fixing, scares me.
Believe me, even a new (or newish) boat is a hell of a lot of work. There is just no such thing as a maintenance free vessel. I'd advise anyone looking to purchase a large yacht to really look hard and realistically at what it takes to maintain both in terms of labour and financial commitment.

You would be astonished at the amount of work involved in keeping larger boats looking good. If you want to cruise you absolutely must be able to fix things yourself. There is simply no getting around that fact.
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Old 12-05-2010, 23:48   #29
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that probably needs plenty of self maintenance and on-the-go fixing, scares me.


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You would be astonished at the amount of work involved in keeping larger boats looking good. If you want to cruise you absolutely must be able to fix things yourself. There is simply no getting around that fact.


The first position to be in is a total reality of this advice V's your current dreams. Sure some folks think Schooners or classic oysterman etc boats (I include any with dark red sails) but all these boats have more work than a dedicated enthusiast can handle. This list I'll include any boat thats not clearly in the production plastic fantastic catagory.

Mine is virtually maintenance free.......... The fiberglass. So theres no varnishing or maintenance of natural materials and difficult to source parts and fittings.
But everything else on the boat is a constant maintenance issue: If its working now it might not be soon.
We have a fair list of stuff to do as there hasn't been a chandler since we left Australia 10 months ago and we are now in Europe 10,000 miles later. When we finally get to a good chandlery (we hope Marmaris in 1 weeks time) I will have a few weeks getting much needed parts.

Even little things like O rings for the toilets are a problem. I bought a couple the same size in Malaysia, but they are not exactly the same size so both need replacing. That sort of problem.

The other thing you mention is the ability to fix things. Well, thats a 2 fold problem: one part is what I have learned to fix. Because I am not mechanically adept I have to look at things for a looong time, get an idea how to fix it, pluck up the courage, and then do it. The first time we blocked the head I was thinking about it for 2 days before we plunged in! Fortunately we have 2 heads

The other part is things I can not fix, though they may be simple: I need to drill one hole in a deck fitting for a jury fix untill I can get the fitting replaced either in France or the Caribbean. However the hole needs to be so specifically drilled that I need a pro driller to do it! I will find a cruiser who is really handy with a drill and then he will drink all my beer!

The costs of getting a trade person from the boat yard to come and drill the hole are ridiculously high: a day in the marina, his companies payment which is the guys wage x 2.

Except for the stuff in the second catagory, you can learn the maintain all the weird and wonderful bits on your boat. It becaomse kinda fun even!

My advice to anyone is to buy the most maintainence free boat possible because that level of maintenance is enough to almost sink any avid cruiser!


Mark
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Old 13-05-2010, 10:01   #30
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The first position to be in is a total reality of this advice V's your current dreams. Sure some folks think Schooners or classic oysterman etc boats (I include any with dark red sails) but all these boats have more work than a dedicated enthusiast can handle. This list I'll include any boat thats not clearly in the production plastic fantastic catagory.

My advice to anyone is to buy the most maintainence free boat possible because that level of maintenance is enough to almost sink any avid cruiser!
Mark
To embellish upon Marks comments:

Our boat is likewise a 'plastic fantastic' (or as Herreshoff said, 'frozen snot') which nonetheless involves a hell of a lot of effort to maintain. Being a cat we have two engines (Yanmars) and a genset (Northern Lights). All great stuff but that is three engines to service, three sets of filters, belts and oil. And if you're not handy, three mechanics invoices. And the parts between the genset and engines aren't interchangeable so you've got two sets of spares.

For example: The genset installed by the factory mysteriously kept draining it's battery - after weeks of frustration I finally figured out that the wee 8 amp alternator on the genset was being sucked dry by the 5 amp bilge blower. Keep in mind this thing is throwing off 230 V power so the last thing you imagine is such a stupid error. But there you have it.

I could go on, as could most boat owners, but suffice to say that there is virtue in simplicity and bigger is not necessarily better.

Don't let it put you off but rather look on it as food for thought.
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