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Old 15-04-2010, 09:39   #16
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Wow. Free legal advice on CF. Worth what you pay for it. Expensive boat? Please hire an attorney.
No problem.... I would love to but I'm in France and it will be difficult to hire an attorney for canadian VAT questions here.

This is the reason i post these question..

Are there specialized companies in Canada, specialized in registering vessels and dealing with all the paperwork ??

There are thousands of them in the BVI's, Gibraltar, Malta, Panama, Delaware, etc.....

Marc
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Old 15-04-2010, 09:49   #17
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Maybe call the Lloyds office in Canada. They should be able to point you toward proper advice.
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Old 15-04-2010, 10:07   #18
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Malta 10-20m effective VAT rate is 9% for your boat

Hi Bonobo,

How about Malta ?. Your Cat being between 10 and 20 meters would effectively have a VAT rate of 9%. See below link.

EU VAT Registration of Yachts in Malta : CC-Advocates : Malta Law Firm : Yacht Registration EU Value Added Tax

I know its not ZERO, however you would have a 'neutral' EU flag and no limitations on being in EU waters for a sustained period of time, neither would cruising around the world be a problem. Still would be 9% on 700k euro.

Good luck and us know on CF how you have ventured. It's not too far away and I will have a similar issue,

Rgds,

Arno
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Old 15-04-2010, 17:11   #19
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Most flags are welcome just about anywhere... its your passport that matters, not very much the boats flag.
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Old 15-04-2010, 17:13   #20
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EU registration... there are special regs for EU citizens. If you have an EU passport you will have great difficulty registering it in another EU country unless you are resident in that country. In cases where you will keep the boat in that country, you can often get past this. But if you are say French, registered in Malta, expect problems if you keep it in France, or even visit France with it a lot...
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Old 15-04-2010, 17:36   #21
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The major problem ... a lot of other countries in the world do not recognize a "less than National/Federal" registration/documentation.
What countries, for example? I doubt it's really a problem. State registrations from the Republic of California seem to be 100% valid. I've never had any problem, but my experience is limited on such boats. Some boats under 5 NRT have cruised the world and they would not be documented.
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Old 17-04-2010, 06:56   #22
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Re second citizenship - after 911 all the affordable ones have been shut down under pressure from the US. Unless you want to live in DR for 6 months and end up with a nearly useless passport, you need to spend generally at least $250,000 USD unless you have some ancestral link to certain countries....
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Old 17-04-2010, 07:19   #23
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Re second citizenship - after 911 all the affordable ones have been shut down under pressure from the US. Unless you want to live in DR for 6 months and end up with a nearly useless passport, you need to spend generally at least $250,000 USD unless you have some ancestral link to certain countries....
That is a wild exaggeration but anyway, it is not a cheap procedure. In Grenada you need to be living here for at least 4 years (at US$18.75/mo for visa extensions) and then pay lawyers fees and government fees of about US$2-3K for citizenship processing.
- - The major impediment to getting "dual" or a different "citizenship" is the time involved. Even in the Dominican Republic you are looking at 3-4 years.
- - But getting a different citizenship is not necessary to "re-flag" your vessel as has been explained in earlier posts all you need to do is form a local "corporation" which assumes ownership of the vessel and you own the controlling shares of the corporation which gives you control over the vessel. Hundreds, if not thousands, of vessels - especially mega-yachts - use this technique which has two main benefits - one taxes and the most important one for the mega-yachts, it allows them to hire crew from many different countries rather than being restricted to only hiring citizens of their home country which could tend to much more expensive.
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Old 17-04-2010, 09:10   #24
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Question Why not Panama or Cayman Islands?

It may take setting up another company but, I think that might be your best bet.

Just a thought

Cayman Islands Shipping Registry
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Old 17-04-2010, 11:17   #25
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As someone said, you can register your boat in just about any country you want to, if you open a company in that country.

Let m throw you one more curve ball -- why are you trying so hard to avoid an EU flag? If you are having the boat built in France, then you are paying the VAT anyway on all of the components and on all of the work contracts, unless you are doing something complicated to claim it back or something like that.

There are a lot of advantages to an EU flag and tax-paid status, especially if you are from that region. If you are an EU citizen and plan to spend any time at all in EU waters, you will have massive headaches with a non-VAT paid boat.

It's also a big advantage when you go to sell the boat.

My boat is UK flagged (in the name of a UK company), although I am a US citizen. UK flag is great because there are no running taxes of any kind.
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Old 17-04-2010, 16:19   #26
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I don't know if I am going around in circles here on this subject, but beside the time and money to set up an "off-shore flag of convenience" you are also restricting your boats movements in your "home country" since it must now operate under either a foreign vessel "Cruising Permit" in the case of the USA or the E.U. restrictions of X months per X years as a non-E.U. vessel. Of course, if you do not cruise in those locations and keep and operate the boat in someplace like the Caribbean you are not restricted in any significant way.
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Old 18-04-2010, 17:56   #27
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That is a wild exaggeration but anyway, it is not a cheap procedure. In Grenada you need to be living here for at least 4 years (at US$18.75/mo for visa extensions) and then pay lawyers fees and government fees of about US$2-3K for citizenship processing.
I guess living in St Kitts has me conditioned to read "Economic citizenship" when someone mentions second citizenship without qualifying it. Of course if you are willing to live in a country for usually at a bare minimum 4 years (most countries require 3+ years + other pre resident time etc) then of course you can do that. But for economic / fast second citizenship the quoted numbers are not an exaggeration.
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Old 18-04-2010, 19:53   #28
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"Economic Citizenship" - that is a new one on me. I always assumed "citizenship" meant living in a country and then getting "naturalized" and then being able to participate in elections, hold office, vote and hold that nation's passport. I have heard of some small countries "selling citizenships" to the highest bidder. Here in Grenada they did that a few years back and got really burned when it was discovered they were selling "Grenada passports" to terrorists and other nefarious people. It was quickly shut down and the P.M. got in serious trouble. A web search of "economic citizenship" shows quite a few websites offering assistance in obtaining "economic citizenships" at the prices you mentioned and then at the top of the list was this statement - "Due to 9/11/2001 Grenada and many other passport by investment programs were shut down under pressure from America!"
Whether other countries were all shut down or not - who knows - but for sure any country that still does offer immediate "economic citizenships" and has been caught selling them to questionable people, probably has its citizens automatically on a "watch list" when they try to get visitor or other visas to major western countries. That IMHO would certainly piss off the "real" citizens who want to travel the world and end up being refused visas. I noticed that the countries selling these "economic citizenships" have really tightened up on their qualifications and background checks before issuing one. Recent news - 2010 - articles have the UK and others threatening to impose tighter visa restrictions on such countries still selling "passports." It's a different world now from 9 years ago - or even last year.
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Old 19-04-2010, 05:39   #29
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Your assumptions aren't quite accurate. After 9/11 most programs did shut down. There are still a few high end ones, although a Google search will turn up a lot of scams. For a reputable list try here:
Henley & Partners -*Citizenship of Choice

Its not cash and go. These countries perform extensive background checks. Some you can invest and get citizenship, and even countries such as Austria offer this.

The passports are well respected and there are many reasons to do this. Imagine you had a passport such as Russian, or Saudi. You can travel nearly nowhere. Even if you have money, the visa regime is so onerous. Getting a second passport makes travel much easier.

St Kitts can travel visa free to Europe, Canada, and most other countries that Western passports can go. The only "normal" place that requires a visa is the US, and if I recall they give a 5 or 10 year visa once you obtain it.

Once you have the passport you are a full citizen just like anyone else... The only one thats not like that that Im aware of is Panama. Panama offers a travel only passport, where you are not even a citizen. The problem is that you don't get the full travel rights of a Panama passport so it ends up being of limited use, and most people use it for banking purposes.
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Old 19-04-2010, 07:11   #30
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Hello All,

Thank you again for the attention you all show to this post.
I answer hereby to a few of the comments.

“”Let m throw you one more curve ball -- why are you trying so hard to avoid an EU flag? If you are having the boat built in France, then you are paying the VAT anyway on all of the components and on all of the work contracts, unless you are doing something complicated to claim it back or something like that.””

The vessel is under construction using my US “Delaware LLC” company and I have not to pay any VAT on the work and components because the vessel will be “exported” out of the EU waters and own by a non EU company.
This is 100% legal.
This was simple so far until I found out there was a difference between “US State registration” and “federal registration”

If I continue to try to find a solution it is because we are talking about over 150.000 euros VAT here, (over 200.000$) one can live a long time on the ocean for that amount….


“”How about Malta ?. Your Cat being between 10 and 20 meters would effectively have a VAT rate of 9%.””

Malta is good for big super-yachts over 10 million of euro of value. The creation of a company there cost a fortune and the 9% VAT is based on a “Leasing” of the vessel, for this the 18% VAT has to be paid in advance and recover back later. The yearly costs are also astronomical. The attorney used needs to make at least 10% of the value of the company, not counting the 9%VAT …. So Useless for me.

Most carabean or Bahamas “flags” do not offer Radio licences or call signs nor MMSI numbers. So Also useless for me.

Re “”second citizenship””
This is a useless conversation as I already have two passports…
I have found more info on the US registration / Documentation….

Here the advertising text of a Delaware based “Broker”

I e-mailed and called them and the are affirmative a foreigner can obtain a US “National” / USCG documentation if the vessel is owned by a US Company. The Nationality of the owner of the company is of no importance as the vessel is owned by the US Company and not the personal name of the owner….

It is very confusing...
Meanwhile, I still try to get as much info possible on the Gibraltar or Canadian options….
Marc

The American Flag : Advantages (application form)
1-The Boat is welcome in all the Harbours of the World
2-Consulate & Ambassade Assistance Worldwide
3-Prestige Flag
4-Only US$ 875 as yearly Tax - No VAT-TVA .
5-In case of Resale , simply transfer the shares of your US Company to the new buyer
6-Discretion of ownership possible , shares at sight possible.
7-Official CALLSIGN and MMSI Maritime Mobile Service identity arranged for your Boat.

How it works ? 

Your boat will be owned 100 % by your USA new established "Yachting Management" company , fully owned by you as Director and shareholder.

Time for the Setup : around 10 days by Registered Mail . Then we register the Boat under the USA Flag .(notarial)

TIME SETUP approx 10 days -
It is not necessary to come with the Boat to the USA


Handling procedure as proposed :
Setup of a specific yacht management Company who will be the Official Owner of the Catamaran
You can act as President. and the shares are fully in your hands.

Registration on an official State Record , Wilmington being the home base of the Boat.
Emission of the Official Numbers and Registration Card;

Filing for the National Vessel Documentation filings
Filing at least for the MMS and Call sign in name of the Yacht Management Company

Charges for the USCG filings US$ 380
Radio Fed filings US$ 340
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