Reality Check - Looking for good advice

[Giglio]

Hello. I'm a 50 y.o. man from Argentina. I'm about to retire and was evaluating the possibility of buying a boat and travel the Caribbean and the Med. I have no prior sailing experience other than driving small motor boats or sea kayaking, but I've just signed for a "Timonel a vela" course (I believe it's the equivalent to a RYA Competent Crew course)
I've recently sold a property, so I started to look for a sailing yacht, somewhere between $50k-$100k. There's a 2013 Hanse 385 I just love and the seller is asking $85k for her. But she's in Croatia.
First problem is: There's a stupid protectionist law here that prohibits any argentine citizen from importing foreign vessels. It's supposed to promote the national shipyards, but it doesn't. Anyway... I was thinking in going incorporated (LLC) and registering the boat in... Cayman Islands? Panama? BVI? Has anyone done that? Any advice?
The other question is Croatia. I've seen this

video

from Sailing Kawai, and they explain the process of buying their boat in Turkey, but they don't share the economic part of it.
In short, let's say I manage to close the deal in $80K for the boat. How much money do you think it would take (apart from the 80 grand) to leave the docks and head for Greece with a smile on my face? Fees, Taxes, forms, surveys, translations, paperwork and more paperwork and $ and $$ and $$$...
Was I clear enough? Thank you.

[bellasailor]

Originally Posted by Giglio

The other question is Croatia. I've seen this

from Sailing Kawai, and they explain the process of buying their boat in Turkey, but they don't share the economic part of it.
In short, let's say I manage to close the deal in $80K for the boat. How much money do you think it would take (apart from the 80 grand) to leave the docks and head for Greece with a smile on my face? Fees, Taxes, forms, surveys, translations, paperwork and more paperwork and $ and $$ and $$$...
Was I clear enough? Thank you.

We're just closing on a purchase in Croatia so I can help with some costs. I can't tell you how much registration will cost if you haven't decided where to register and whether as a legal person or a company.

However, I can clarify some costs and things to think about.

1. Is the boat EU vat paid? If not, and you aren't from, or resident in the EU etc that's fine but the boat needs to leave EU waters once every 18 months. Won't go into more here, but if this applies to you then do some research. If you are EU resident, you may need to pay VAT
2. The list price is likely negotiable, and potentially more so as the off-season rolls by
3. We are buying an 11.55m yacht and surveyors from Split charged EUR875 for full pre-purchase survey including sea trial, moisture readings and their travel
4. Marina fees for crane out and 5 days storage were ~EUR550

We have also had to get notarised documents to enable registration in Croatia etc but again, this will depend where and how you register. Don't forget insurance and I think this varies a lot depending on your plans and where you are resident/where you buy the insurance.

Hopefully that at least answers some of the costs! I have some insight into Croatian brokers and surveyors as well as marinas, shipyards etc if I can be of any help! Please do your research on brokers and insist on scrutinising paperwork before handing over any money or booking any travel. Croatia is my favourite place on Earth and a very trustworthy culture, but I have heard one or two horror stories.

Edit - I can see 2 listings on Yachtworld for a 2013 385 in Croatia but both appear to be the same boat with two brokers. Do some research - one will generally come out more favourably than the other if you Google. We are dealing privately so can't comment on either but when our search was broader we received a lot of comments about one of the brokers that seems to have that boat for sale. The Med Sailing facebook group is also very helpful.

One more edit - in many European countries you will need a licence to operate your boat, likely ICC which is roughly equivalent to RYA Dayskipper. In Croatia (and maybe others) you will also need a radio licence.

[Giglio]

Hi, Bellasailor. First of all, thank you for your detailed answer to my query.

Originally Posted by bellasailor

I can't tell you how much registration will cost if you haven't decided where to register and whether as a legal person or a company.

Well, I wish I could do it here. I'm pretty proud of my country and it feels somewhat weird to sail under a foreign flag, but that seems not to be an option. I'm still researching, but so far registering in Cayman Island as a company seems to be the best bet.

Originally Posted by bellasailor

1. Is the boat EU vat paid? If not, and you aren't from, or resident in the EU etc that's fine but the boat needs to leave EU waters once every 18 months. Won't go into more here, but if this applies to you then do some research. If you are EU resident, you may need to pay VAT

I'm not an EU resident.

Originally Posted by bellasailor

2. The list price is likely negotiable, and potentially more so as the off-season rolls by

I've heard that you can probably bargain between 5% and 20%, depending on the season and how long the boat is being offered.
If you don't mind. How much were you able to drop the initial price for your boat?

Originally Posted by bellasailor

3. We are buying an 11.55m yacht and surveyors from Split charged EUR875 for full pre-purchase survey including sea trial, moisture readings and their travel
4. Marina fees for crane out and 5 days storage were ~EUR550

So, percentage-wise, how much of the total operation was the price of the boat, and how much were the process expenses?

Originally Posted by bellasailor

Hopefully that at least answers some of the costs! I have some insight into Croatian brokers and surveyors as well as marinas, shipyards etc if I can be of any help! Please do your research on brokers and insist on scrutinising paperwork before handing over any money or booking any travel. Croatia is my favourite place on Earth and a very trustworthy culture, but I have heard one or two horror stories.

Thank you! I'll be probably contacting you via PM as soon as things start to develop.

Originally Posted by bellasailor

Edit - I can see 2 listings on Yachtworld for a 2013 385 in Croatia but both appear to be the same boat with two brokers. Do some research - one will generally come out more favourably than the other if you Google. We are dealing privately so can't comment on either but when our search was broader we received a lot of comments about one of the brokers that seems to have that boat for sale. The Med Sailing facebook group is also very helpful.

To be honest, I'm looking for the best cruiser I can afford. I'm not much of a yachts connoisseur. I like the looks of the Hanse and I've heard that it´s well built and it's easy to sail single/short-handed. I've been exploring other options: Beneteau, Dufour, Bavaria, Jeanneau... Hanse appears to build better boats. Or maybe they have a better marketing strategy.
I'm hoping to live onboard for a couple of years at least. The only requirements are that it can accommodate 6 passengers/crew and that it's able to take me/us from point A to point B without much hassle.
There are certainly many other good options in the 38-42 foot range. I'm open to suggestion from experienced owners.
Besides, getting my finances in order will surely take me the next six months, if not longer, so I don't expect her to be listed still. There will always be other good offerings, and Croatia seems to be the place to buy a boat today.

Originally Posted by bellasailor

One more edit - in many European countries you will need a licence to operate your boat, likely ICC which is roughly equivalent to RYA Dayskipper. In Croatia (and maybe others) you will also need a radio licence.

Yes. I'm working on it.
Again. Thank you very much!
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[bellasailor]

Originally Posted by Giglio

I've heard that you can probably bargain between 5% and 20%, depending on the season and how long the boat is being offered.
If you don't mind. How much were you able to drop the initial price for your boat?

Ours was a private sale with a boat that had been dropped in price by ~EUR10k a matter of days before and truly priced to sell before a deadline by which the seller would need to commit to new charter/berth contracts etc- we didn't therefore get much off but haggled to include things like 6 months marina berth etc. It wasn't a typical situation! But I would agree with your assessment of 5-20% off and that you could open negotiation on an overpriced boat at 30% off potentially. Be very clear what will and won't come with the boat too; this can vary wildly as private yachts (or privately owned but professionally operated in charter) might have their own inventory (everything from tender/outboard to crockery and oars, buckets etc) that come with them whereas those owned by a charter fleet, or a seller who is migrating to a new boat, might be stripped of everything.

Originally Posted by Giglio

So, percentage-wise, how much of the total operation was the price of the boat, and how much were the process expenses?

The expenses I quoted (survey/crane etc) are all related to the length of the boat not its cost; ours is similar to the Hanse 385 so should be a fair indicator of costs for that.

Originally Posted by Giglio

There are certainly many other good options in the 38-42 foot range. I'm open to suggestion from experienced owners.
Besides, getting my finances in order will surely take me the next six months, if not longer, so I don't expect her to be listed still. There will always be other good offerings, and Croatia seems to be the place to buy a boat today.

Depending on your level of finances and how many people would typically be on board at any time and whether you will need marina berths either long term or adhoc; think about if you need to go over 12 metres or not. There are just a few thinks that jump up in cost at that point. e.g. marina berths are charged by length and often it's 10-11.99m, 12-13.99 and so forth. Cruising tax in many countries is by length and in Greece for example is EUR33 per month for a yacht under 12m and for 12m+ is EUR96+ per month. It may not be that critical for you, but worth being aware!

Coming back to registration, a legal person owning a boat in Croatia can register it there - you need to be predominantly using it there at the time of registration but wouldn't be kicked off a register for later sailing off, and would need an agent/broker to assist, but it is an option. Owning and Registering a Boat in Croatia: What You Need to Know - Total Croatia Sailing - Total Croatia Sailing
You would also need to get an ID number (OIB) as this is required to get the radio licence. A few hoops to go through but not as bad as it sounds. Boats under 12m are "small boats" and not "yachts" which makes the process cheap and simple, if you have a local representing you.

A very knowledgeable Croatian friend rates Bavarias pre-~2000 (I'm sure Google will clarify) when their interiors were solid wood etc. Apparently (risking the wrath of a legion of Bav owners now!) after that production quality wasn't as good. Hanse look good but I have heard mixed things. We have gone for one not in your post, an Elan. It's under 12m but with a high coach roof and broad beam. We chartered one before buying to confirm how we felt about it.

Good luck with it all and , whilst we are newbies to this too, if you have any questions please do PM and will help if I can!

[Giglio]

Thank you, bellasailor, for your advice. Much appreciated. I have a much better picture now of what to expect.