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Old 12-12-2012, 23:06   #241
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
You know, at the end of the day if another boater does or doesn't have insurance then that is his or her business, until that person runs into my boat, then it becomes my business as well.

If you are willing and able to pay for the damage then I don't care if the money comes from your pocket or your insurance company's pocket, as long as it's not my pocket.
the crux of the issue.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:13   #242
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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I'm no where near the 2%, have excellent credit, pay for almost everything with my credits cards (when even McDonald's starting taking them I just stopped carrying more than $20 cash), haven't paid any credit card interest or fees in years, on averge I make $100+ per month in rewards cash by using my credit cards.

Guess I'm just a bad person!

But don't know what having a credit card has to do with the thread really.
It's hot topic in 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde...

So why not here?????
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:39   #243
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

My experience has been in 2010 I couldn;t spent $3000 per month on my 38 foot cutter in the Caribbean. Around 2800$ per month allowed me every desire. Had I been more frugal like not eating most of my meals in restaurants and drinking every night I could have easily brought this figure to $2k per month. Under 45 foot I believe a budget of $36K per year will have you wanting for nothing and $24K per year will have you living a comfortable lifestyle. Less than $20K per year will have you pinching pennies; And hat's not a bad thing. I think a young person solo could cruise on $15k per year in the Caribbean if anchored out every night and keeping entry and exit fees to a minimum. The expenses that build up the fastest IMO are the ones that are necessary but bring you no pleasure such as bureaucratic bullshit. My next cruise I hope to plan for $36k per year and spend most of my time blissfully inebriated with plenty of bikinis on board.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:45   #244
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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You know, at the end of the day if another boater does or doesn't have insurance then that is his or her business, until that person runs into my boat, then it becomes my business as well.

If you are willing and able to pay for the damage then I don't care if the money comes from your pocket or your insurance company's pocket, as long as it's not my pocket.
Many boats and crew are uninsurable. Just a fact of life. If you are insurable and you worry about the demolition derby of an anchorage you're moored in. Well thats on you and just a part of your cruise. If you are worried about uninsured boaters delaying your cruise. You need your own insurance. Life aint fair and nobody ever said it was.
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Old 13-12-2012, 05:03   #245
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Many boats and crew are uninsurable. Just a fact of life. If you are insurable and you worry about the demolition derby of an anchorage you're moored in. Well thats on you and just a part of your cruise. If you are worried about uninsured boaters delaying your cruise. You need your own insurance. Life aint fair and nobody ever said it was.
And just want would it take to make a boat and crew insurable?

I can see that an insurance wouldn't issue compensative insurance for a falling apart unsafe boat. That makes good sense.

But for liability insurance the only things that would make you insurable is that you either don't have enough experience, or you have already caused so many claims that they know you are a bad bet.

So basically if you can not qualify for basic liability insurance you probably have no business being out on the water as you are just unsafe.
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Old 13-12-2012, 06:19   #246
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Many boats and crew are uninsurable. Just a fact of life. If you are insurable and you worry about the demolition derby of an anchorage you're moored in. Well thats on you and just a part of your cruise. If you are worried about uninsured boaters delaying your cruise. You need your own insurance. Life aint fair and nobody ever said it was.
Uninsurable maybe for full coverage, but like Don says, I think you have to be pretty bad to not qualify for liability.

And I never said I was worried. To criticize something in no way implies fear or worry on my part. Nor will I delay any boating plans based on the lack of insurance by other boaters. Guess you had toss in these comments to dramatize your point, maybe we can call it poetic license.

And yes I do have my own insurance, just in case you don't.

For those that are opposed to insurance, cruising life in some areas may become more difficult. I see more marinas and boat yards requiring proof of liability insurance and according to notes on noonsite.com some countries are now requiring proof of liability and medical insurance.
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Old 13-12-2012, 06:49   #247
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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And just want would it take to make a boat and crew insurable?
My 1939 engineless Atkin cutter (now sold) was unisurable according to every insurance company I could find for collision? and liability. Most often cited reasons were it will sink, we don't insure antiques, we don't insure wooden boats, not without a survey and once I had a survey the vessel was still uninsurable for tonnage, age and lack of engine.
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Old 13-12-2012, 07:36   #248
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Uninsurable maybe for full coverage, but like Don says, I think you have to be pretty bad to not qualify for liability.
Or, perhaps you are experienced enough so that you are able to rationally assess the real risk, and take appropriate measures. You know ... through good seamanship practices . Purchasing 3rd-party insurance is one way of dealing with risk. In some cases and some places it is the best way, but not in all situations.

Here's a modest proposal: instead of forcing everyone to buy insurance, how about we force everyone to pay for an extensive anchoring course which must be updated every other year? Or how about we force people to purchase a certain type of anchor & rode? These options would create real improvement in the actual risk most people are exposed to.

We already do a similar thing for the operation of cars. We force people to pass a license test, and we enforce the type of safety equipment. Lets do it for our boats

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For those that are opposed to insurance, cruising life in some areas may become more difficult. I see more marinas and boat yards requiring proof of liability insurance and according to notes on noonsite.com some countries are now requiring proof of liability and medical insurance.
This is absolutely true. Even up here we see this effect. The more we treat people like mindless children, the more we reap what we sow.
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Old 13-12-2012, 08:00   #249
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Or, perhaps you are experienced enough so that you are able to rationally assess the real risk, and take appropriate measures. You know ... through good seamanship practices .
Problem with this, no matter how good you are Murphy is out there lurking. I have seen new, name brand SS fittings fail due to a casting fault. I had an engine that used to overheat and shut down at random times. After two years and multiple mechanics in the US and several Caribbean islands and hundreds of dollars we never did figure out why. I had the shift linkage on an almost new charter boat break where the cable connects to the transmission. There was a crack on a bolt in the fitting that was hidden and invisible to any inspection without full dis-assembly.

Bottom line, sometimes stuff happens to the best of us. No one, no matter how good they are and no matter how well maintained the boat, is immune, except me of course.

Anchoring lessons could certainly help but that is just one of the risks. It would be interesting to hear a statistic but in my travels I think I have seen a lot more damage inflicted in marinas and at gas docks than at anchor.

As far as boating licenses and boat safety inspections. The former is already required in a few places and the later is sort of enforced by the list of mandatory equipment required by the USCG. Just don't have a mandatory, routing inspection to see if you are actually in compliance. And you think the anti insurance, freedom to be irresponsible crowd is protesting now? What do you think the response would be to this idea?

However, it does seem incongruous that one has to have a license to drive even the smallest, slowest car or even a moped but can go buy a 45', 1000 HP, 100+ mph Cigarette and hit the road without any oversight at all.
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Old 13-12-2012, 09:10   #250
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Problem with this, no matter how good you are Murphy is out there lurking.
Oh, I absolutely agree. There is no such thing as 100% certainty about anything. The best prepared and wisest seaman can be sidelined by an unexpected event. This is true for life in general. We can't mitigate against every possible risk -- it's impossible. The only thing we can do is rationally assess risk, and take actions to reduce these to a reasonable level based on a cost-benefit analysis.

But you've rightly zeroed in on the core of my thesis. We, in our safe and rich Western world, are increasingly deluded into believing, and seeking, zero risk. How many times have we heard proponents say, "No cost is too high if we can save one person! ... We must have zero emissions! ... No price is too high if we can catch one potential terrorist! ...".

These statements are rampant in our very safe, and very rich, Western society. They are based on this notion that we can, and therefore must, reduce risk to zero. As you point out, Murphy insists this is impossible, but those who profit from irrational fear (police, government, insurance companies, etc...) beat the drum and drive us to try and achieve the impossible. We, as a society, have have lost our capacity to do rational risk assessment -- and that is no accident .

I am not saying -- have never said -- that risk should be ignored, or even that insurance is never the right answer. I'm just pushing back on this notion that insurance is always the best answer, and those who chose a different option are somehow bad, wrong, and don't deserve to be out there (which I don't say you're saying Skip).

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As far as boating licenses and boat safety inspections. The former is already required in a few places and the later is sort of enforced by the list of mandatory equipment required by the USCG. Just don't have a mandatory, routing inspection to see if you are actually in compliance. And you think the anti insurance, freedom to be irresponsible crowd is protesting now? What do you think the response would be to this idea?
I'm sure you realize I made the suggestion with tongue firmly planted in cheek . That's not to say I oppose licensing carte-blanche. Again, it would depend on real risk, coupled with a rational cost-benefit analysis. I can certainly point to one mandatory boat licensing system that is waste of money, and likely does nothing to reduce risk: our Canadian Pleasure Craft Operator Card. What a waste...
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Old 13-12-2012, 10:01   #251
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

Not having insurance is my choice. You want to be insured against risks related to me then buy some. Your risk, your insurance, your piece of mind, your cost. Me buy insurance for you? That's nuts.

When I drive, which is very rare, I have insurance that covers risk from uninsured drivers. It's for my benefit. It's at my cost. Makes sense to me.


Great Point

You know, at the end of the day if another boater does or doesn't have insurance then that is his or her business, until that person runs into my boat, then it becomes my business as well.

If you are willing and able to pay for the damage then I don't care if the money comes from your pocket or your insurance company's pocket, as long as it's not my pocket.
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Old 13-12-2012, 10:18   #252
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

I would have insurance if I could afford it. Peace of mind. My old boat is it. Life time of work. No house no stash of cash. That's it. If it burns sinks or is stolen. I have nothing. I am also a cancer survivor. Maybe that will kill me first, or lightening, or a super ship with no one on the bridge, or no one willing to change course, or maybe I skid on the crap roads driving to the boat tomorrow, or or or.

I used to climb, all about calculated risk. In the Alps the death toll was staggering. Many caused by rock being knocked down from someone in another climbing party. No one ever sued, no one had insurance. I am not reckless, mean spirited, blatantly in your face screw you attitude. But the way I look at the Oceans, they are a harsh environment that, like high mountains do not welcome intrusions by man. When we untie the lines we are putting ourselves at risk of death, plain and simple. That is part of the appeal, to go to someplace we are not supposed to.

So while in a perfect world we could all have the perfect boat, the perfect, crew, the perfect insurance, have limitless resources, and be Cancer free, it is not going to happen is it? Well not for most of us anyway. Most of the cruisers who I meet when they stop on the North Coast of BC do not have insurance.
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Old 13-12-2012, 10:46   #253
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

Whether or not someone is insured is quickly becoming someone else's decision.
It is getting harder and harder to go places with out insurance.
The required liability insurance is relatively cheap, it gets expensive when you start to add in full coverage of an expensive boat. I was wondering what people were complaining about after I looked around and found a company that would insure my wooden boat for full time international cruising for about $75/mo...then I realized some people pay more for their gadgets and gizmos than I paid for my entire boat (gizmos included). My insurance had liability and like any good car insurance "uninsured boaters".
I don't like being required to do things, even if I would choose to do it myself. Liability is cheap (especially if you don't travel very far). My boat is my home...it's all I have in the world, that is why I will be getting full coverage.
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Old 13-12-2012, 13:10   #254
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

^ same boat but different boat. I hope to get insurance but at the moment not an option, in the future we will see, I will have to become gainfully employed at some point, which will then mean I will not be cruising, which means I will not need insurance.
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Old 13-12-2012, 14:32   #255
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Re: Published Costs of Cruising

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Whether or not someone is insured is quickly becoming someone else's decision.
It is getting harder and harder to go places with out insurance.
The required liability insurance is relatively cheap, it gets expensive when you start to add in full coverage of an expensive boat.
Agreed wolfenzee. Even up here in the frozen north our yacht club forces members to carry insurance. My understanding is that the club's insurer is the one that insisted on this, so it's a nice circle (for the insurance companies).

As I said before, it comes down to assessing risk, and then applying a cost-benefit analysis. I guess it also matters what kind of restrictions the insurer places on you. If insurance is cheap, the answer is easy and obvious. If it is expensive, then it becomes more difficult.

BTW, I hope everyone realizes the risks involved in boating are, generally speaking, exceedingly low. I did an analysis looking at accident statistics for boating in the US (the best place to find data). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but the results were that all risks were exceedingly tiny -- a fact the insurance companies know all too well.
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