Opinions on Survey Required, Please

[BlueWaterSail]

15K is too much for this boat. First, the hull is going to need a lot of work.. regardless of how much you knock off the sales price. Chances are you are going to have to hire someone to do it, in which case you'll spend more than the boat will ever be worth.

Second, the standing rig is 7 years old, in a couple more years you're going to have to start thinking about replacing it. Did the surveyor go up the mast? If not, chances are there's an expensive surprise awaiting you there (Murphy's law).

And third, the engine needs to be thoroughly gone over before you proceed to verify the seller's representations.

I have been through this kind of experience and trust me, it's not fun. No sailing, just paying for repairs. And then you decide you want a bigger boat, so you take another hit.

From what you're used to on Kamara, I would not go less than 36ft. Lots of bargains available now, you may have to broaden your search to the other side of the pond. Don't go for a fixer-upper, get a clean vessel in good shape and you'll pay a lot less in the long term.

Good luck, BWS

[Wand]

Originally Posted by simonmd

"The insurance company read the report and only cared about the bulkhead and required us to get that fixed before the journey."[/I] So at least some work has been done then. The boat was originaly in the UK and after that survey, was used extensively in 2010 travelling through Europe

The bulkhead work was the most important (the surveyor knew enough to note that it wasn't done to the original specs) and it's a big plus that it has been done. It'd also be reassuring that the boat did that good trip last year. I'd just check with the insurance company that the policy can be transferred to you (without a further survey) - given it's just a year, should be no problem. Good luck.

[BlueWaterSail]

Originally Posted by simonmd

The boat was originaly in the UK and after that survey, was used extensively in 2010 travelling through Europe via the French canals, ending up in Greece. .

Bingo - essentially you are buying a canal boat that is structurally unsafe for the open ocean. Is that what you want?

Originally Posted by simonmd

I suppose it's like expecting a house surveyor to check if the oven works in the kitchen!

Nothing wrong with the analogy, but remember that a new "oven" could cost you 10K in this case.

Sorry, I don't want to be the party-pooper here, as I said I went through a similar situation and it was not worth it.

BWS

[Wand]

Originally Posted by BlueWaterSail

Bingo - essentially you are buying a canal boat that is structurally unsafe for the open ocean. Is that what you want?

Structurally unsafe? That's a big call; I didn't see anything in the survey to suggest that.

[BlueWaterSail]

Sorry, I should have added "in my opinion".

Reading the survey, what stands out are the countless times the surveyor defers opinion on the structural integrity of the hull to a third party - this or that needs to be investigated, etc. To me, each of those statements indicates that the surveyor is uncomfortable with what he has found, and there are a lot of them. Too many for comfort, again IMHO.

BWS

[sigmasailor]

A typical surveyors report where the surveyor makes very sure to state what he has NOT done and clearly limits his own responsibility. Where 'bad' observations are made he recommends further investigation; hmmm, why doesn't he simply state bad. What I also don't like about these reports is the fact that statements are usually vague. Being Dutch I prefer clear and to the point statements and dislike 'satisfactory' and such statements (I prefer a simple good or bad).

Those are the 'negative' remarks which can be made on all reports; they are all similar.

On the positive side the reports has a lot of valid comments on the (bad) quality of the cat which would make me a little worried; it does show the survey was thorough and the surveyor knows his job.

It all depends on what you are looking for. If you're looking for a nice DIY project, have time on your hands and the price is right (10-15k in euro's) I would go ahead and have fun fixing it up; it seems a doable project since the cat is structurally sound. It will take you at least a year to get it right if you do all the work yourself.
If you need to hire a professional to fix it I would walk away and find a better cat.

The survey is a year old; I would guess not much maintenance has been carried out in that year (do the engines run, are the batteries charged, do electronics still work?); it is clear that the PO did maintain his cat but has given up some time ago.

Eric

[BlueWaterSail]

Originally Posted by sigmasailor

A typical surveyors report where the surveyor makes very sure to state what he has NOT done and clearly limits his own responsibility. Where 'bad' observations are made he recommends further investigation; hmmm, why doesn't he simply state bad. What I also don't like about these reports is the fact that statements are usually vague. Being Dutch I prefer clear and to the point statements and dislike 'satisfactory' and such statements (I prefer a simple good or bad).

I would prefer that too, and so would the surveyor, but the latter is not able to verify his concerns by cutting a chunk out of the superstructure here and there. You need to read between the lines on these issues. The surveyor has already limited his liability to the amount he received for the survey, so the rest is a matter of personal integrity.

The seller wants to sell the boat and the buyer wants to buy it - If the surveyor thinks it's a POS, he has to say it ... indirectly.

BWS

[uncle_fred]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Just walk away Renee'..... and don't look back that way no more...
I stopped at second page....

that is what i think even if the price is low there are some good boats on the market with less work, i thought i bought a bargain and the report was a lot better cost me 3 years and a lot of money look around first if you have the time ? in the med at the moment good boats and good offers. I live on a 33mtr if 9 mtrs is enough for you and to sail in the med 12 mtrs min

[David_Old_Jersey]

£15k?

I don't think out of the ballpark (doesn't mean that £10k or less wouldn't be better ).

That report pretty much what I would expect for an older cheap boat. plus I would reckon on a few things the surveyor didn't spot (due to no destructive testing / no access). I would figure £10k to be spent on her, and would prefer £20k in the kitty just in case. Obvioulsy the more DIY one can do the better but looks to me that boatyard would have to be involved on a fair bit.

For that I would expect to end up with a nice (old) boat good for another 10 years, and would be worth around £15k But that would depend on the engines still being good - and would be where my pre-buying investigations would focus on, including sea trial. On the boat condition I would get a report focused only on the structural matters identified, including estimates to fix (cost & work involved), whether that be from a Surveyor or boatyard (or both).

The question is really does the boat provide what you want at a cost that is acceptable? Not entirely sure if she is the sort of boat that I would be happy to go trans ocean on (even if others have), but for long term cruising (or just sitting on) in the med could well be ideal.........even if will always have looks that only a mother could love that will be reflected in resale, unless you sell to an Aussie - apparently prices are always going up

[Wand]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

even if will always have looks that only a mother could love that will be reflected in resale, unless you sell to an Aussie - apparently prices are always going up

Better investment than gold. And we do ugly big time - always better value for money.

[sailorboy1]

I have no experience with boats down in this price range and stopped reading after 5 pages as that was enough for ME to walk away. But the boat seems to be as expected for it's price range.

I think the only way to decide is to get a new survey that is done for youself and be there during it. And then doing a good cost analysis of the various work that is going to be needed. In other words if youreally are interested youneed to spend some money to check into it.

You probably had doubt to start with or you wouldn't have started the thread. In general I feel that you are asking yourself if you should walk away.............well then you should!

[Pete7]

Whilst I would buy it, I would also be happy doing the work, except its now an awful long way away.

So if not this one or a similar 9m, what else is available for similar money that is less risky.

For me I would choose something like this instead as its probably cheaper that fixing up the Cat. It will also go anywhere you wanted to go, safely and without the pounding the the cat will suffer from. I think Boatman highlighted this recently on another thread.

Moody 33 Mk 1

I should declare that I know Tim the owner and this was his fathers yacht which he inherited. Tim is now selling because his age is catching up with him. Been on the market for a while so offers are in order.

Pete

[thinwater]

Sea Trials. Yes, the surveyor will take part (mine did). They are needed for ANY older boat, as there are many things that must be checked under load (engines, winches, running rigging, sails). Pick a breezy day, not an easy day, even if the owner doesn't like that. Also ride (slapping), tacking (or difficulty) and speed (engine, mostly). Numbers on paper are one thing, your feeling is another.

Resale value. I have owned 3 cats (used). In each case, after some work (really just good maintenance and a few minor up-grades) I sold each for more than I paid. This comes back to "good bones." Is the hull good enough that after some work, she will be attractive to someone else? The "not reinforced to factory design" comment bothered me; I would investigate that. I would rather spend more money and then recover that when I sell.

Look at several of the more $$$ 9Ms that are nearby. It will give you a yardstick.

The structural survey seemed complete, but he did not climb the mast and did not test most systems. You have more work to do.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by At sea

The bulkhead work was the most important (the surveyor knew enough to note that it wasn't done to the original specs) and it's a big plus that it has been done. It'd also be reassuring that the boat did that good trip last year. I'd just check with the insurance company that the policy can be transferred to you (without a further survey) - given it's just a year, should be no problem. Good luck.

That 'Good Trip' involves crossing Europe through nice calm canals and then harbour hopping down to Greece... not exactly testing conditions for an Optimist dinghy...
Ss to the bulkheads I'd say thats a major thing as its the main support holding the hull and deck together.. it also serves as the compression post for the mast and from what I've read the damage to decks and cracks in hull are the result of severve overtensioning of the rig... mono's dislike being 'Banana'd... old Cats like it even less...
Rudders will also need redoing.. possibley new linkage as well

[callmecrazy]

There was damage to the port outer topsides in line with the front saloon bulkhead. The damage ran from deck level to the waterline and the soundings from a small hammer indicated delamination to the laminate.

ii. There were further comparatively small areas of damage to the port outer topsides over the entire section from the front to aft saloon bulkheads.

iii. There was damage to the port outer topsides in line with the aft saloon bulkhead. As at the front bulkhead, the damage ran from deck level to the waterline and the soundings from a small hammer indicated defects within the laminate.

iv. There was damage to the port outer quarter in line with the aft engine room bulkhead. The damage ran from deck level to the waterline.

That's a significant amount of 'damage'. What happened?

I recently bought a boat in the very low end of the market. I've seen quite a few surveys and quite a few boats.

Without having seen this in person...
I would walk away from this one. I didn't even read the rest of the survey.
There are better deals out there.
As somebody else stated, you want to start with a solid hull. All the systems will need upgraded and gone through eventually anyway. Your money will be tied up in maintenance and upgrades for a long time to come with a boat this old, and in this condition.. So you don't want the added expense (and insecurity) of hull repairs. And it definitely needs repaired.
Even if they came down significantly in the price. I personally wouldn't want a boat that has had the hull practically duct taped together (yes it's that serious! IMO)... NO matter how good the next version of the repairs are.

Hull repairs should be done so well that they are invisible. even a competent surveyor should have a difficult time detecting the repair... From the sound of this, these were obvious repairs that were not done correctly and now even more damage has occurred (beyond the original "damage") as a result of the poor repair.