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Old 22-02-2017, 01:30   #1
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Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Pre-amble : I'm exhausted from finding boats that look to be a good buy, closely inspecting them myself, then going for $1500+ worth of Sea Trial and Survey to find all the problems that make a boat unpurchaseable

Straight out of the gates, I looked into buying a boat that was listed as a "Beneteau 43"
I thought it strange that the broker would leave off Cyclades - as you could misconstrue the boat to be a better model of Oceanis
Perhaps this is deliberate misrepresentation to try and gas the price up to an unfamiliar buyer?

The boat is all the way down in Key West FL - so even getting to have a look over her took around 15 hours of driving with an overnight stay (from Orlando, FL)

She looked kind of clean and tidy for a 2006 - true to the "lightly sailed 4 months and stored 8 months" sales fluff in the listing.

At Sea Trial and Survey - all of the junk of the sales listing fell away very rapidly.
Leaking oil in to a cleaned up engine bay that looked like it had never seen a drop
Damaged rudder that was bent enough at the shaft that the blade can actually stick and chafe on the hull while steering. Full steering range is in fact not possible due to obstruction.
Evidence of collisions and groundings - can an owner really smash into rocks, ground the keel, bend a rudder from impact and then list the boat as "clean, ready to go and lightly used"?

Where does the point of illegal misrepresentation enter the equation?
Should sellers be upfront about an engine that leaks Oil?

With all the damage found to this boat, the surveyor valued it at an amount way less than I offered - the seller wouldn't even extend the acceptance date while I waited on the report to be written up - felt like a dirty tactic to have me accept vessel blindly and be right over a barrel financially with my deposit committed
At present, the boat still sits listed as innocent and idyllic with a 50% price hike over current assessed value

This is my fourth survey now - and it feels like I'm a magnet for the very worst of the market
How many surveys have other cruisers had before they found their feasible/ideal purchase?
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Old 22-02-2017, 02:42   #2
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, MarigotRose.
I can empathize.
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Old 22-02-2017, 02:56   #3
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarigotRose View Post
Pre-amble : I'm exhausted from finding boats that look to be a good buy, closely inspecting them myself, then going for $1500+ worth of Sea Trial and Survey to find all the problems that make a boat unpurchaseable

Straight out of the gates, I looked into buying a boat that was listed as a "Beneteau 43"
I thought it strange that the broker would leave off Cyclades - as you could misconstrue the boat to be a better model of Oceanis
Perhaps this is deliberate misrepresentation to try and gas the price up to an unfamiliar buyer?

The boat is all the way down in Key West FL - so even getting to have a look over her took around 15 hours of driving with an overnight stay (from Orlando, FL)

She looked kind of clean and tidy for a 2006 - true to the "lightly sailed 4 months and stored 8 months" sales fluff in the listing.

At Sea Trial and Survey - all of the junk of the sales listing fell away very rapidly.
Leaking oil in to a cleaned up engine bay that looked like it had never seen a drop
Damaged rudder that was bent enough at the shaft that the blade can actually stick and chafe on the hull while steering. Full steering range is in fact not possible due to obstruction.
Evidence of collisions and groundings - can an owner really smash into rocks, ground the keel, bend a rudder from impact and then list the boat as "clean, ready to go and lightly used"?

Where does the point of illegal misrepresentation enter the equation?
Should sellers be upfront about an engine that leaks Oil?

With all the damage found to this boat, the surveyor valued it at an amount way less than I offered - the seller wouldn't even extend the acceptance date while I waited on the report to be written up - felt like a dirty tactic to have me accept vessel blindly and be right over a barrel financially with my deposit committed
At present, the boat still sits listed as innocent and idyllic with a 50% price hike over current assessed value

This is my fourth survey now - and it feels like I'm a magnet for the very worst of the market
How many surveys have other cruisers had before they found their feasible/ideal purchase?
Its a classic , if you feel better let me say that prior i found a nice and clean C&C 44 , i crash in a big pile of waste my time junk not worth a penny. after 2 travelift up and down 600 $ surveys i just give it up with brokers and try to found private sellers with a small amount of decency, let me say that some kind of experience in boat construction, gear and systems help to determine by yourself if the boat is worth a survey... and honestly i remember that 44 C&C offered me years of fun and sailing joy..

If i can give you a advice could be this one , Do not believe anything
advertised and take your time,,
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Old 22-02-2017, 03:45   #4
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pirate Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

From my viewpoint look for boats away from regular hurricane hits.. the owner does not have to be aboard for the boat to ground and get its rudder bent.. maybe this is a case of hurricane damage.. the owner pocketing the repairs payout then looking for a sucker to take on the refit.
Florida.. to be honest.. is about the last place on earth I would boat shop in.. go North or East young man.
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Old 22-02-2017, 04:16   #5
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Is there an insurance registry that can be searched to see if claims have been made to a boat?
I've seen BoatFax and HinChecker sites, but experience with both has left me feeling unsure / uncertain that they are good sources for forensic and reliable data

It feels like the boat market is fuelled by fraud and misrepresentation
It's not allowed in housing markets - odometers in car markets are a risky part to mess with, with legal repercussions - finance industry is heavily regulated
What needs to go wrong for the boat market to have some consumer safety controls put in place?

I've already seen and heard of SoldBoats.com data being fabricated by brokers to gas up the resale market too (inflated markets mean inflated commissions)
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Old 22-02-2017, 04:32   #6
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pirate Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Likely the best you can do is get the name and HIN of the boat then innocently enquire which insurers he use's as one's you've investigated seem expensive (folks like to brag how good their deals are.. even when they're not.. ) then contact the insurers and see if they'll grass him up.
Do not however think there's a central registry open to the public..
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Old 22-02-2017, 05:46   #7
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Boatman61 is dead on. I spent 6 months here in Florida getting an education on what to look out for in boat buying. I ended up buying up on the Chesapeake.

"Florida.. to be honest.. is about the last place on earth I would boat shop in.. go North or East young man."
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Old 22-02-2017, 07:36   #8
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

I waffled and lost a B445. Seller said it had been chartered first six years but you would never had known it. That said we looked at a B50 from same broker- fell in love with the photos but the reality was shocking. If u find a good boat better b ready to jump.
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Old 22-02-2017, 07:47   #9
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

Well looked after and well built boats are never in the bargin basement where so many are looking. It's good you passed on your experience as hopefully it will give some insight to those that are new to shopping for sailboats.
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Old 22-02-2017, 08:42   #10
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

That's some bad luck you've had, sorry to hear it.

It's up to you to ask the right questions before going to see a boat, if you want to avoid wasted time/money. Brokers are sales people, and they're not going to give you a list of all the bad things about a boat. But most in my experience are honest and won't lie to a point-blank question (ie, you should ask whether the boat has had any groundings, and if the broker doesn't know, ask to speak to the owner).

When I was boat shopping I had a list of questions to ask, before visiting and during visiting (before survey). One of those questions should also be: when was the boat's last survey? If the owner has access to it, often the broker will let you view it. If it was a purchase survey in the last 12 months that a buyer backed out on, that's helpful since it indicates a likely issue. If it hasn't had a survey in the last 8 years, then it's quite possible there's an issue that both the owner and broker are unaware of (like groundings or rudder issue).
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Old 22-02-2017, 08:53   #11
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

It can never hurt to take a look yourself before a survey. A lot of obvious stuff will jump out at you and you can save the price of the survey. If it looks good then you can go the next stage and get a survey.
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Old 22-02-2017, 09:22   #12
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

IMO good deal can be found in Florida if you look and know what your looking for. Everything else is stacked against you and a shark around every corner. The Florida Yacht contract is weighted heavily in the sellers and brokers favor. In particular when it comes to your 10% deposit. If you need financing and it falls through, you lose your 10% deposit. Be very careful. I wrote purchase contracts for real estate for 5 years and the Florida yacht one is garbage. Also I am convinced the surveyors are in bed with the brokers so buyer beware.
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Old 22-02-2017, 09:38   #13
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

For our current boat, we worked with a buyers broker. We actually looked at 7 or 8 boats by ourselves after contacting the listing broker and clearly informing them we had a buyers broker, before we checked out the boat we were interested in. Once we found one we liked and thought had potential, we had our broker ask to have a sea trial; sort of making it official. It was way easier for us to eliminate boats that were not up to what we wanted or had potential problems prior to going on an 'official' sea trial. A benefit of using a buyers broker for us was that he knew the selling broker and got some info from the selling broker that we may have not been able to. Our broker actually knew the boat we were interested in.

All of this was possible because we were willing to travel to look at several boats. We live in the PNW and checked out boats from Oregon to lower BC, Canada, prior to purchasing one. It wasn't cheap, but was the best way for us to go about it.

The PNW may not have the total amount of inventory that Florida has for instance, but the rainy cold weather seems to keep the available boats in decent shape (lots of fresh water rinsing!) and not to say that boats haven't grounded here, just the general water depths are greater so there is less opportunity to. It may be worth it to look at an area like Washington, and see if there are a number of boats available that interest you and then plan a trip to look at them as opposed to driving to look at one at a time. When we would make a trip to Canada, we would try to line up 2 or 3 to look at on one trip.

The same is possible to do in a place like the Chesapeake Bay area, which may have a good selection of boats you are interested in also, so looking at several on one trip would make the travel less onerous.

Good luck on the search
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Old 22-02-2017, 09:48   #14
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

There is no simple solution. Boats always look and sound better in the listing than they are, brokers have lots of leeway when describing a boat, and owners, well, there are good ones and bad ones, unfortunately more of the former than the latter.

A buyer's broker can help, and while they represent you they are not going to want to poke through 20 boats on your behalf unless you budget is enormous. If you can find a broker who specializes in the brand of boat you're after, and who is busy, there is a good chance that they already have first hand knowledge of a good number of those boats on the market, which is a plus. For example, Annapolis Yacht Sales in Annapolis is I believe the largest Beneteau dealer in the country, and they also broker a lot of Benes. They're going to know a lot of the boats.

Certainly, the No. 1 thing you can do to do the first inspection yourself. You'll start to get a feel for a boat that has been well cared for and maintained vs. one that has not.

Surveys don't catch everything, just the obvious stuff. What you're really paying for is a 2nd opinion by a neutral party by which you can renegotiate the agreed on purchase price based on survey findings.
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Old 22-02-2017, 09:58   #15
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Re: Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey

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Originally Posted by foufou View Post
It can never hurt to take a look yourself before a survey. A lot of obvious stuff will jump out at you and you can save the price of the survey. If it looks good then you can go the next stage and get a survey.
That's one part that hurt the most with this one - things looked good on my initial inspection (not at all talking from much experience)
I even found what i thought to be a rudder reinforcement job - a known manufacture weakness with the Cyclades. Instead of it being a pro-active measure to better protect the rudder support, it just turned out to be a rough repair job - with it's own faults, and a rudder that can't move through full range of steering without sticking and chafing against the hull.

This boat was the prettiest condition i've seen yet, but all of that cheap makeup can't hide whats underneath. $1500+ for makeup remover is such a great expense compared to there being a better way that this industry could be more honest.
My motivation to share here is to try and forewarn others before outlaying so much cash.

I heard the appointed Captain, for the day, updating the selling broker with as much detail as he could work out from loitering and eavesdropping the process.
I think the seller might know more than they let on, and that the broker will find out slowly and surely as this listing ages.
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