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Old 28-09-2011, 15:51   #16
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by wlboyer View Post
Does over loading the boat then make the boat unsafe or just sluggish?

We, too, will be happy to be sailing at 8-10kt.
Just sluggish - particularly in light air. There is, of course, more force on the rig, but we reef conservatively, so that is taken care of.

Don't expect 8-10kt regularly from either. Expect 8, but plan for 6 on passages. We have never been disappointed planning for 6, because even with no wind we motor 6 with one engine only. We almost always arrive early. Approaching continual 10kts on passage on our boat begins to feel like the margin for error is rapidly diminishing. And that is during daylight.

I can give you an example: We made a 4 day passage from Long Island Bahamas to Puerto Rico on a broad reach and double reefed main in 15-23kts of wind the entire time (I told you we were conservative). It was a pleasant passage with an average speed of 6.5kts. We could have easily sailed with full sails and averaged 8kts, but that would have meant being squirrely in the largish following seas and stuffing the boat into the back of some waves. At 6.5, we just rode up and down slow and easy.

And when I am trying to sleep at night, nothing keeps me up more than the sound of the boat rushing down a wave front followed by the sound of the catching wave stuffing itself through the bridgedeck past the boat when it slows down in the trough. Much more relaxed riding up and down them...

In cruising cats, I think this is a universal truth. That's why I don't spend any time on the forum topics about which boat is faster, etc.

Mark
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Old 28-09-2011, 15:55   #17
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
We were more curious to know how these 2 boats actually sailed loaded down with off shore equipment, gear and people. We are not sure of the load capacity of the Manta and know that the Lagoon 410 can handle the extra weight.
I cant help with that comparison, but the load carrying of a Cat vs a Mono is amazing. an example: when I bought my Lagoon 42 I had my Passport 47 for sale. We parked the boats together in adjacent slips with only a finger pier between them. (We had so much stuff on the Passport that the water line was down about 5 inches... we had painted the bottom paint to the top of the boot stripe and it really wasnt enough.) We took all the gear off the Passport directly to the Lagoon. The waterline on the lagoon went down about 1.5 inches.
Unless I am understanding you incorrectly, that is not my experience. Cats are affected far more by weight than monos. It is easily calculated. For our Manta, every 980lbs sinks it 1". And that 1" probably costs us 0.5kts in 10-15kt winds.

Mark
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Old 28-09-2011, 16:07   #18
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
The Manta I was referring to is a 2005 model. The owner told me that he had 2 inches more headroom than most Manta's because of the thinner floor. I didn't measure it my self so I'm only going by what he told me. For some reason he had the thing put in a yard and had the floor rebuilt for a lot of money. I would have thought if he could have solved the problem by simply fastening the furniture down he could have saved himself the money. Again I'm just taking the owner's word on this. He did say that there were a limited number of Manta's with this problem.

By the way the 40 foot Manta's were built by Endeavour Catamaran Corp., the same people that built my boat. Manta opened their own factory when they started building the 42. Endeavour builds very solid boats so if you are looking at a Manta 40, I'm sure you'll do well.
The 2005 Mantas all had the furniture glassed directly to the bridgedeck. If his wasn't, it was a quality control thing, and hasn't been brought up by any other owners.

In 2005, Manta increase the headroom a couple of inches by cutting the deck mold and and adding 2-3" to the main cabin top. The headroom was gained by raising the cabin top, not lowering the floor.

The floors on all boats consist of a 3/4" nidacore subsole glued directly to the bridgedeck with a synthetic teak and holly floor glued and screwed to that. The only way to gain room downward is by putting in a thinner subsole - which would only get you a 1/2" at best.

Endeavor built the first 11 Manta 42's also. Up until 2001. They also built many of the Victory 35's. It is always interesting to go on an Endeavor or Victory cat and feel at home because all of the fittings, fixtures and trim are identical. Endeavor built (builds) very good boats with high quality control. I have found no shortcuts or missed quality control stuff on ours.

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Old 28-09-2011, 16:39   #19
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The 2005 Mantas all had the furniture glassed directly to the bridgedeck. If his wasn't, it was a quality control thing, and hasn't been brought up by any other owners.

In 2005, Manta increase the headroom a couple of inches by cutting the deck mold and and adding 2-3" to the main cabin top. The headroom was gained by raising the cabin top, not lowering the floor.

The floors on all boats consist of a 3/4" nidacore subsole glued directly to the bridgedeck with a synthetic teak and holly floor glued and screwed to that. The only way to gain room downward is by putting in a thinner subsole - which would only get you a 1/2" at best.

Endeavor built the first 11 Manta 42's also. Up until 2001. They also built many of the Victory 35's. It is always interesting to go on an Endeavor or Victory cat and feel at home because all of the fittings, fixtures and trim are identical. Endeavor built (builds) very good boats with high quality control. I have found no shortcuts or missed quality control stuff on ours.

Mark
Like I said I was onlly passing the information supplied to me by the owner. I don't know the details of what he had done, he mentioned some sort of stringers. It was not my impression that the furnishings were jumping two inches off the floor, but the things sitting on them because of excessive motion. His complaint was in fact the first I had heard about in Manta's. Before I bought the Endeavour the Manta's were number one on the list. If your set on a Manta don't ever let your wife see the inside of an Endeavourcat. They certainly don't look as nice as the Manta on the outside but they sure have them beat on the inside. From a Sailing point of view the Endeavourcat 44 and the Manta seem pretty similar with the Manta having better performance when lightly loaded, but the Endeavourcat handling a load better. I too cruise at 6 knots on one engine and get to about 10 knots on the best points of sail in 15-20. The boats have virtually the same rig and lightly loaded the Manta should significantly out perform the Endeavor. Our boat actually gets a little difficult to control above 10 knots, which I attribute to rudder ventilation, so I reef down to keep her at 10 or slightly below. In the ocean I'm quite happy cruising in the 7-8 knot range under sail. This provides a comfortable ride and I can relax, which is of course what a cruising cat is for. Colemj sure seems to know a lot of details about Manta's and his evaluation is probably spot on. If my wife had not seen the Endeavoucat, I'ld probably be sailing on one.
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Old 28-09-2011, 16:54   #20
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
The boats have virtually the same rig
Not virtually, I think exactly! I believe Manta and Endeavor use JSI rigs, and they are the same ones.

Without a doubt, the Endeavor 44 is a true 44' boat, while the Manta is a stretched 36', and not even a newer design one at that (like you mentioned). You could probably fit our boat inside yours!

You didn't boat shop in the correct order - I took my wife on an Endeavorcat 30 first!

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Old 28-09-2011, 17:33   #21
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Just sluggish - particularly in light air. There is, of course, more force on the rig, but we reef conservatively, so that is taken care of.

Don't expect 8-10kt regularly from either. Expect 8, but plan for 6 on passages. We have never been disappointed planning for 6, because even with no wind we motor 6 with one engine only. We almost always arrive early. Approaching continual 10kts on passage on our boat begins to feel like the margin for error is rapidly diminishing. And that is during daylight.

I can give you an example: We made a 4 day passage from Long Island Bahamas to Puerto Rico on a broad reach and double reefed main in 15-23kts of wind the entire time (I told you we were conservative). It was a pleasant passage with an average speed of 6.5kts. We could have easily sailed with full sails and averaged 8kts, but that would have meant being squirrely in the largish following seas and stuffing the boat into the back of some waves. At 6.5, we just rode up and down slow and easy.

And when I am trying to sleep at night, nothing keeps me up more than the sound of the boat rushing down a wave front followed by the sound of the catching wave stuffing itself through the bridgedeck past the boat when it slows down in the trough. Much more relaxed riding up and down them...

In cruising cats, I think this is a universal truth. That's why I don't spend any time on the forum topics about which boat is faster, etc.

Mark
You're a little more conservative than me, but I agree with your post for sure.
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Old 28-09-2011, 17:37   #22
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Unless I am understanding you incorrectly, that is not my experience. Cats are affected far more by weight than monos. It is easily calculated. For our Manta, every 980lbs sinks it 1". And that 1" probably costs us 0.5kts in 10-15kt winds.

Mark
Guess you should have bought a L42! Just kidding...... but, it was what it was.... never compared speed but the cat was fast enough compared with the moono. leaving last on an overnight crossing with a group of monos, we were usually first in, but I dont try to sail in light air either. There's always water or electricity to be made.
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Old 28-09-2011, 18:13   #23
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Not virtually, I think exactly! I believe Manta and Endeavor use JSI rigs, and they are the same ones.

Without a doubt, the Endeavor 44 is a true 44' boat, while the Manta is a stretched 36', and not even a newer design one at that (like you mentioned). You could probably fit our boat inside yours!

You didn't boat shop in the correct order - I took my wife on an Endeavorcat 30 first!

Mark
I think the rigs maybe the same on some years. The Endeavour does not have running back stays or the stay tensioners found on some Manta's. My boat has a fixed boom vang where as all of the Manta's I've seen have rigid but adjustable boom vangs. The 2005 in the slip next to me has a taper to the top 20 feet or so of the mast that I don't have (owner says they should have left it straight). Other that that they're pretty much the same. I suspect that despite my slightly greater bridge deck clearance that the shape of the under body probably makes for a more comfortable ride when motoring directly into a sea.

You are probably right about the order, but the price was pretty much exactly the same. It ended up being ok in the end, as long as I can leave the monos in my wake after they make jokes about my floating condo.
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Old 28-09-2011, 18:30   #24
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Re: Manta 40 vs Lagoon 410

I did a lot of work on a Manta (hull 126) and it was right about the time the owner of Manta took ill..... His successors cut an awful lot of corners finishing 126 and her only saving grace was the work completed before the change in ownership of the factory. I spent the better part of 6 months correcting things that should have been warrantee.

The current owner of the boat is still having issues with the boat... one of which if I remember was something to do with the bridgedeck sole! He is sailing somewhere off Venezuela right now... I’ll see if I can raise him and get the details.
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