Is teaching boat skills on my boat illegal without a 6-pack?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by nautical62

And there are thousands of people hired by summer camps, sailing schools college programs, and other programs offering sailing instruction who do not have their captain's license and legally don't need it.

...

Yes, thats one example of where a captain lisence may not be required.

[Kita]

In FL my understanding is its like real estate, you can buy for yourself & sell for profit all you want,buy if you do a deal for someone you can't profit from it without a license, same on a boat,you can teach for free,no problem. ..they can chip in expenses, that's ok.. but if you try to call slip fees an expense, I think that's a problem without a license. .. as far as the boat tied to the dock,no worries there..marina could fuss if they think you're commercial. I once had a police officer in a boat sitting out there in the water and watch me go through skiing instructions to the people on the shore and on the dock and they never said anything. That is until I untied the boat as soon as I untied the boat they approached me immediately and told me that at that point I was a navigable boat and subject to all according laws and then they proceeded to write me 9 tickets. And this was on an inland Lake right in front of my house I was told that is soon as I untied I was fair game. The guy was a very prickly sort and cited me for everything he could find.. such as I was about to do a barefoot ski run & the body armor padded wetsuit I had on was not BIA certified, the horn kinda was weak the first time I touched it but worked fine a split sec later on the next touch,my FL numbers were less than a 1/2 in space,they were 3/8! This was 20 years ago & I can't remember the rest,I just remember him being a real,well not a nice fellow. .. since then I have run across many Marine Patrol and have never run across anyone like that fellow. They have all been very nice and courteous. but that guy was really something else. I was really quite surprised that he didn't try to take me to jail because the initial reason we went to him before just jumping off the dock & doing a Deepwater start for the barefoot run was there had been an mildly aggressive alligator that we had called freshwater and game to come out and remove and I thought that was why he was there so I was going to go over there and help the guy out and tell him where the alligator was staying at but then he got real aggressive and I found out that that wasn't why he was there at all. One of my neighbors thought that it was unsafe to water-ski without skis! So he was there just for me.. I felt so special

[merlinuxo]

Whichever way (underway or dockside) you'll need business license, liabilty insurance, etc. If you're teaching a professional skill (electric or plumbing) and are not certified in that skill, forget the license.
Also talk to your marina. The ones I'm familiar with don't want competition, liabilty of non owners or want a piece of the action.
Or, flat out just do not allow businesses to be run out of the marina.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

Hi all-

As I consider ways to make my boat habit less expensive- It occurs to me that there are a lot of skills any of us might have that others want to acquire. Some of these are dockside- e.g. marine electrical, diesel maintenance, fiberglass, etc. Others are best acquired afloat- navigation, sail-handling, salt-water fishing, etc. Where is the line between captaining a boat for hire (requires 6-pack license or more) and instruction which can be contracted with willing participants?

Fred

If your charging I would imagine so on at least a 6 pack. I believe you may wish to check insurance liability rates prior to considering thinking about reducing costs.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by nautical62

Some do, some don't. I'm an ASA certified instructor and don't have a captain's license. The ASA instructor courses do not include getting a captain's license. They are completely separate certifications.

Following is a link to a chart created by the ASA which gives some indication as to when those teaching sailing also need a captain's license and when they do not.




https://asa.com/pdf/USCG-questions.pdf

Very interesting chart. It has always been my understanding that you can charter for hire without a liscense if your boat has no mechanical power. And, your powered tender can be used to maneuver you out to sea. I always wondered why this loophole was in effect and even more surpringly why the powers to be continue to keep it in the rules.

[Mithril Bham]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Fred-
Rent them the boat for bareboat charter. (Which of course may also not delight your insurer.) Now it is their boat, and you are free to sign a separate contract for plumbing lessons, electrical lessons, whatever. Again contracting that you will in no way captain the boat, the lessons will take place on whatever craft they happen to have available, whether it was chartered from you or otherwise.
The trick is, keep the captaining out of it. And make the charter part of the business into an arms-length charter, lessons or not. Besides your insurer, does your slip contract allow you to make commercial use of the boat? Many things to consider.

Demise Charter

[jmschmidt]

If you do not have a OUPV or MMC with a master designation and you are getting paid and you are underway you are probably illegal.

[jmschmidt]

hellosailor has a very ingenious answer. rent your students the boat and go along for free to give instructions. However, both courts of law and regulatory agencies like the USCG use the "duck" theory if anything goes wrong...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

As for summer camps, yacht clubs etc. they usually offer lesson programs for a flat fee. At my yacht club the instructors don't ride in the boats with the students. They assign a small fleet of training boats to each student or two and the instructors ride around in a powered launch yelling instructions through a bullhorn. It's usually very funny to watch. Yesterday I saw seven Toppers with two students each milling around the marina. A puff came through and six capsized. The instructor was going nuts.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Yes, thats one example of where a captain lisence may not be required.

As long as you don't leave the dock.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Fred-
Rent them the boat for bareboat charter. (Which of course may also not delight your insurer.) Now it is their boat, and you are free to sign a separate contract for

I disagree...sell them shares in your boat. This way, it's their boat too. If anything happens, they would have to sue themselves.

Sound stupid? Thats how the local yacht club (KYC) operates. When the haulout crane pretzelled my prop shaft, I asked the organizers to pay for the damage caused by their mistake. I was told that I was part owner of the club, and in turn I was organizer for my haulout and fully responsible the mistake.

Make sure to have the "shares" expire once the lessons are done.

[hellosailor]

You're digging a deeper hole.
I'm talking about a traditional marine or YC, not a co-operative, or member-owned share club as yours may be. If the club is member owned, I doubt you can sell shares in the boat without full consent of the governing body, and they may not want to sell shares that "expire" in two weeks. Their formal consent may be needed for every change of ownership, good luck with that.
Then no matter how you sell shares, you insurer will need to adjust the policy or write a new one, considering the history of the new owners. Or they can revoke the policy citing a change of ownership. And after the second or third short change, they may suggest the use is commercial and terminate coverage anyway.
And of course, you'll have to re-register and re-title the boat every time the ownership changes.
Sure, there are ways around everything is particular circumstance, but you're just digging the hole deeper, compared to putting the boat in charter service and selling lessons separately. A *simple* and conventional one-time change.

[Snore]

There is the short answer -- you need at least an OUPV to do this.

Others have posted several longer answers that provide unusual ways to play with the nuances of the law. These ideas MAY work, if no one gets hurt, or tries to sue for some silly reason. This brings up the question of what your insurance company deems appropriate. If you do not meet your insurance company's standards you are on your own.

If something happens, everyone will "lawyer up" and you being the little guy will lose.

[DsquareD]

Here's a scenario that I suggested to some friends with a lot more experience than what I have.

I would have paid them to coach me on the operation and handling of my boat and tagged along with them, flotilla fashion, while they were on their boat. They are currently to far away to do this, but I still think it would be a very valuable service.

So now the question still stands, would they need some kind of license for a service like this?

[buzzstar]

I did not know the answer and still do not, but it occurs to me that if you are going to be paid, the fact that you have a captain's (six pack) license might help attract students.

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Fred-
Rent them the boat for bareboat charter. (Which of course may also not delight your insurer.) Now it is their boat, and you are free to sign a separate contract for plumbing lessons, electrical lessons, whatever. Again contracting that you will in no way captain the boat, the lessons will take place on whatever craft they happen to have available, whether it was chartered from you or otherwise.
The trick is, keep the captaining out of it. And make the charter part of the business into an arms-length charter, lessons or not. Besides your insurer, does your slip contract allow you to make commercial use of the boat? Many things to consider.

I skipperd/sail trained many charter parties over the years. The answer in my case, though the boat was mine it was chartered from me. Therefore the charterer was "in charge" and I was asked to teach. I have a RYA yacht masters ticket but no teaching quals.
Incidently I wanted a copy of my RYA qualifications a few years ago and was told the RYA don't keep records.
What do I do......BLUFF?