How to Buy a Boat

[Pblais]

Boatmans approach has alot going for it. Mostly it takes you where the boats are and the primary goal is to have good time and in the process check out some boats and meet some boat people. Having a good time is assured. Learning about boats is assured. Being able to go back home without a boat means you did the two things you meant to do and had a good time doing it and learned more. It's a can't lose adventure.

Showing up determined to buy a boat means you'll lose patience and buy a boat and maybe not a very good one after a few weeks owning it. You can still practice all this closer to home on short adventures to get the feel for it. You'll learn to have fun doing it so why not? Everybody here likes to look at boats. It is a disease we all have. I can assume you already know the having fun part, but putting the two together is the key. It is mental prerparation. If you decide to purchase a boat the practice will at least convey you know something about boats. You'll be more confident. In practice you can pretend you know nothing and see what the difference is. The practice helps you focus the research you do into things you never knew about and of course will then learn about. Suddenly little things in the pictures you see on the Internet give far more clues.

[Androehw]

Me wanting to buy a cheap boat is a bit comparable with Boatman's approach. I read somewhere on this forum, that the first boat you buy, won't be your last. As long as the surveyor can be trusted to do his job, the financial risk will limited. A first boat is good to learn sailing and maintenance on, and from there I always can look around for a better deal. And by then I actually know what to look for.

What makes it a bit harder is that I'm looking for a catamaran. Compared to mono's they are quite rare, I only have a few choices and I don't think there will be much room to negotiate. Of course i will try, and if a boat is trash I will walk away, but I prefer to know upfront if a boat is trash, so that would save me the journey.

So that brings me back to my original question. How much does a broker of my own help smoothen the transaction? And do I pay him, or does he get paid from splitting the brokerage fee.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by zoombats

Androehw, I can't comment on your exact situation but I can only offer my own experience. I am negotiating for a boat in the far east at the moment. It has been a six month process. I need a boat in the location where it is offered and unfortunately there is very little choice. After the first three months of monitoring the price I flew out to have the boat surveyed and did a pre survey of my own. I had some information that allowed me to start the process and am now in the final stages of making my purchase. I think it is necessary to show a more specific interest in the purchase you wish to make and would have to do that in person, making a deposit and conducting a survey. You have to be ready to look specifically at a boat and make contact with the owner and broker, otherwise, you may be considered as just another tire kicker who can type a message. I wish I were looking for a boat in Florida because I would pick a dozen boats in my budget and start haggling. Come to think of it, I wish I could be looking for a boat in Trinidad. I'll make my report later when I can release my details.

Elaborate?
Because you like Trinidad?
Because you're already in Trinidad?
Because Trinidad is a cruiser's dreams graveyard and there are heaps of good cheap boats there??
Because you just like dropping in throw away lines to see what response you get?

[VirtualVagabond]

I've also found some brokers totally ignore email approaches, or ignore the question and come back with "It's a good deal. Make an offer."

These brokers are not doing what the seller is expecting them to be doing for their commission. The seller doesn't even know just how slack their broker is.

Is it possible to access some register that lists boat and owner and then either:
1) Approach the seller directly, considering that the broker has chosen not to deal with you anyway.
2) Have your own pre selected broker approach the owner to get a deal together, at a reduced commission because you have basically dropped the deal in his lap.

Probably "not the way it's done...", but it's a jungle out there

Thoughts?

[David_Old_Jersey]

From what I can gather (mostly from this forum ) US Brokers (and some Vendors) have strange business practices that involve paying over chunks of cash simply for the opportunity to consider buying. But each to there own. Everyone gets to choose a deal that suits them - not someone else.

My take on the Broker not responding is that they are not really trying to sell the boat - as no money involved. Even in the good times "only" a few grand for a few hours (or even days) work is good money (for most). $5k or $10k is even better..........of course the killer is the strike rate.

My guess is that the boat (and many others) on a Brokers website / listing are simply padding - as punters would be less likely to buy from a Broker with only 1/2 a dozen (or less?) listings. Not to say the boat isn't (or wasn't) for sale with another broker - but I don't really buy the much mentioned broker fee sharing arrangement as automatic, more likely negotiated on a case by case basis and only worth the bother with a solid Punter - but of course hard to get a solid Punter if not bothered to put the effort in..........the easy way around that is request (pretend it's a requirement ) a 10% deposit, the gullible, ignorant or desperate will swallow that - that way even if the sale goes Pete Tong the broker(s) in prime position to still claim their commission (possession is 9/10ths of the law).

If it was me as a Broker I would be happy to have my listings borrowed by other brokers to pad there lists (subject to a quid pro quo) but I wouldn't be interested in commission sharing (certainly not from only having forwarded an e-mail) - my view would be any serious buyer (using the power of Google) would sooner or later knock on my door direct. Wouldn't win 'em all of course, but probably way more than sharing commission for e-mails would cost (and not open to abuse). Of course if another Broker had properly warmed up a Buyer and all I was doing was the closing then that may be another thing, but I wouldn't be doing the other f#ckers job from zero - and paying him for that privilige

If it was me buying I would only ever deal with Brokers local to the boat and who had good details on the boat from the getgo (far away and / or no direct contact with the Vendor would explain only limited details - as well as laziness, and it being a part time job). Not being own listing (and no contact with Owner) would explain how a broker didn't know a boat had been sold.

But to be fair to Brokers e-mail box must get lots of contact from daydreamers (can you imagine trying to sell a boat to some of those who start threads on CF - you'd starve ) and gotta apply some screening process - and simply accept that sometimes you will get it wrong. For an overseas buyer I would have thought it would make sense for a Broker to spoon feed them all the details of where to stay / where to visit (how the local process works) and how you could help after they arrive (stick it on your website or a form e-mail - or both) - if they get off that aeroplane then IMO they are a live prospect worth putting some effort into (most punters have not spent $100's or $1,000's to just look)........just gotta design the process so you are not providing free day trips around the bay - but that is easy enough to manage, with a bit of forethought.

And also got to remember that the Broker is exactly that. a Broker of the deal between Vendor and Buyer, with a chunk of Marketing Agent thrown in. and if lucky also as Escrow Agent. He ain't your freind, nor is he a really salesman. He may well blow smoke up your ass if you require it - but that most likely will be later, after the first date

[gr8trn]

Broker alert, I'm one.

Although I have only been listing and selling boats for a little over a year and it is not my primary job, I may be of assistance.

I get emails about boats listed all of the time. I respond to the specific questions from where ever. I even emailed a person riding his motorbike across Africa on the way to Europe and he was asking me about a $10K boat with known blisters and wanted to know if it was sea worthy...so we do get a lot of seemingly odd communications.

You seem to know what you want, and if you told me that and if I had one, I would be happy to snap some photos and send them. Why the heck not? Although most brokers are doing it to make a living, I am not, so I am quite different.

Your $50K catamaran at the usual 10% is not the whole story. Sometimes the seller will want the offer but suddenly want us to lower the commission to make the numbers work more in their favor. Sometimes the boat is co-brokered and the 10% is split between two brokerages.

Let's say it is a $50k boat and is an exclusive listing. The "house", ie actual brokerage will get 40-50% of the commission off the top. The listing broker who brought the boat onto the market will get 20-25%, and the selling broker will get the rest. So if you are talking to the brokerage owner, he or she will get the entire $5K in this case. If you are dealing with just a selling broker that did not list the boat, he or she is looking at maybe $1K. A thousand clams sounds like a lot of money to some, but if you do the hourly on some of the deals, it is not so desireable...Just saying...

Sorry to ramble on. I do hope my perspective is of assistance.
Greg

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by gr8trn

Broker alert, I'm one.

Sorry to ramble on. I do hope my perspective is of assistance.
Greg

Greg, are you trying to bust up our "let's put the boot into brokers" party?

Appreciate your input and perspective

[zoombats]

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond

Elaborate?
Because you like Trinidad?
Because you're already in Trinidad?
Because Trinidad is a cruiser's dreams graveyard and there are heaps of good cheap boats there??
Because you just like dropping in throw away lines to see what response you get?

Yeah I love Trinidad! Have you ever been there?
No. I am in the Toronto(Canada) area where I live.
I don't know what constitutes a "cruiser's graveyard" and I wouldn't say there are "heaps of good cheap boats there". The person that I directed my post to lives in Holland and was looking for a boat to buy in the west to start his cruising.
Now to answer your first question, elaborate. On what? I am presently looking at a boat to buy in the far east as I mentioned in my post. I won't give details about the deal because I have six months invested in it. I won't divulge where for fear of compromising the deal as a result of some leak to a "friend" who is looking to undercut me. None of this elaboration is of your concern but then I guess by my entering into conversation via this forum it is. I have to be conducting my search to a defined are because "my business" takes me there.
No, I do not " just like dropping in Throw away lines to see what response you (I) get?". What concern is that to you anyway? You clearly have many more "throw away lines" than I do. I don't understand you antagonism.
I merely "wish I could be looking for a boat in Trinidad" because I am seriously limited in choice where I am looking. More choice in this economy means a better deal. The original poster made mention of starting to cruise in the caribbean. Wouldn't you think that there is good value in buying a boat where you plan to live or cruise?

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by zoombats

Yeah I love Trinidad! Have you ever been there?
No. I am in the Toronto(Canada) area where I live.
I don't know what constitutes a "cruiser's graveyard" and I wouldn't say there are "heaps of good cheap boats there". The person that I directed my post to lives in Holland and was looking for a boat to buy in the west to start his cruising.
Now to answer your first question, elaborate. On what? I am presently looking at a boat to buy in the far east as I mentioned in my post. I won't give details about the deal because I have six months invested in it. I won't divulge where for fear of compromising the deal as a result of some leak to a "friend" who is looking to undercut me. None of this elaboration is of your concern but then I guess by my entering into conversation via this forum it is. I have to be conducting my search to a defined are because "my business" takes me there.
No, I do not " just like dropping in Throw away lines to see what response you (I) get?". What concern is that to you anyway? You clearly have many more "throw away lines" than I do. I don't understand you antagonism.
I merely "wish I could be looking for a boat in Trinidad" because I am seriously limited in choice where I am looking. More choice in this economy means a better deal. The original poster made mention of starting to cruise in the caribbean. Wouldn't you think that there is good value in buying a boat where you plan to live or cruise?

Zoombats,

Antagonism was the furthest thing from my mind!
I meant to highlight your 'Trinidad' comment so that the request to elaborate would refer only to Trinidad. My interest in your particular purchase is limited to the general information you were providing.
I was just intrigued as to why, of all the places in the world, you mentioned Trinidad as your place of choice to be looking for a boat, and trying to think of all the possible reasons.

I've never been there, but would love to go.
In fact I'm sympathetic to the challenges of looking to buy a boat from a distance, because we have the house on the market here in Australia and will be looking to buy a boat in the Caribbean/USA/Mexico areas. I guess that was part of the reason why Trinidad caught my eye.

Some places are easy to sail to, and hard to sail back from. Often people find themselves there and the dream is gone, the relationship is on the rocks, or the intention is to come back next season to sail back, but life gets in the way etc. Those places become known as a source of many boats competing for the fewer buyers who are prepared to go there. And of course a source of 'bargains'. If Trinidad happened to be one of those places it would be good to know and include in our research.

As to 'throw away lines' I guess my last comment was a throw away line itself, and was just a bit of lame humour, ie. after trying to think of all the reasons you may have mentioned Trinidad, the only other one could be to see if anyone would be curious as to what Trinidad's got?

Good luck with your purchase. Let us know when it's in the bag.

[pablothesailor]

Looking like we may have a buyer for our property www.pubinspain.mijasgraphics.com , probably in English pounds! So, we may well be ready in a couple of months to go shopping for our boat (60,000 pounds tops, 40ft plus, solid, 1982-1995? 2 double cabins,2seperate heads with showers)! I have spent many months reading this forum and the info here has been really valuable, thank you! Everyone I have met urges me to take my pounds to Florida, spend some time there, set up appointments in advance and view as many boats as i can that tick our boxes! Other tell me to buy closer to home (southern Spain). So am a little confused? Is it very complex to spend prhaps 3 weeks looking at boats in florida, then, if there is a boat we like is it complex and costly to get it onto a british flag! The pound looks like it may well stengthen further against the dollar in the next months! Thanks for any advice! Best,
Pablo!

[zoombats]

Fair enough. Trinidad is a great place to visit and keep a boat. I have sailed extensively in the west Indies for thirty years and as I enter the so called "retirement" phase of my life, The idea of summering in Georgian Bay area of Canada and flying to my boat for the winter is becoming appealing when a place like Trinidad can be utilized to keep a boat on the hard for six months. I have done enough blue water to apreciate flying. Trinidad is recognized as being safe and out the Hurricane belt. I have been armchair boatbuying for a while now and have been seeing some incredible deals in that part of the world. I have to limit my searching to the south China sea because my business and personal interests are there for the next three years. I was envious of the poster who can start his cruising life in search of a boat on this side of the atlantic and hence my comment about looking at Trini. Unfortunatly I didn't see any multi hulls in the price range put forward. I did see a dream of a Southern Cross 28 for 25 grand. Imagine a sweet little cruising boat for that kind of money. You could get a lot of pina coladas with the change. If my deal goes through, you will here me all the way in Sidney. Thanks for the wishes and if I can ever be of assistance in your search let me know. Regards, Mark, Zoom Cricket Bats, Aurora Ontario Canada

[barnakiel]

If you have a sailing friend in Florida you can ask them to go and look at some potentials.

However, I have always had plenty of good response from brokers, try see if same boats are not listed elsewhere, maybe you will get in touch with someone more co-operative there.

b.

[gr8trn]

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond

Greg, are you trying to bust up our "let's put the boot into brokers" party?

Appreciate your input and perspective

OMG, you talked to on online...are you crazy?

Greg

[Tom1340]

Androehw, Here's a buying strategy to consider, provided you know what you want and what it is worth.
Find the boat you want on yachtworld.
Call the listing broker. An international call will separate you from the casual window shoppers. He should be willing to provide any reasonable information you request. If not, move on.
If the boat is still looking good, check the brokerage credentials. Are they registered?
If they are a credible broker, then you make a long distance, sight unseen offer on the boat. Deposit probably required. Make sure the offer agreement includes "offer subject to survey and sea trial that are satisfactory to buyer".
When you travel to the states, if the boat is not as represented, you have the right to cancel, recover your deposit, and follow up on other prospects. Or, you end up with the boat of your dreams in one fast trip.
I've never done this, but I know a guy who did and it worked out very well for him.
Good luck.

[Androehw]

Tom, good tip.

I also found a broker who has a 4 step plan to buy a boat: 4 Easy Steps to buying your Boat

The advice from this thread together with some additional research, has helped me to form a plan on how to buy a boat. It probably will be a combination of an unseen offer and an extended vacation in Florida.

2 more months till I set a precise departure date. I will post a follow up when I got a boat.