How strict are Live Aboard LOA restrictions?

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Rocketman

Sorry, but this sounds a little bit like reverse discrimination against the wealthy or well to do. I certainly would not consider myself poor or wealthy.

Sailorchic, if you were to come to Naples being still in you 50's you might find that you would likely be a youngster here. It seems that most of the sailors in our sailing club are over 60 and most are over 70.

I defiantly will admit that this is condo heaven and many people that buy and live in them have an issue with everyone else that isn't like them. Boaters in general seem to enjoy life way to much for there sensitive emotions.

Sorry I try not to discriminate against anyone. You have to admit that Naples leans toward the higher income brackets.

I think the condo folks are annoyed with the boaters having fun, Way too many condo's for this girl..

LOL, I lived down in that neck of the woods for a few years. Yes even 60-65 is young down there.

[hellosailor]

Vance-
"He told me he takes the boat out every day to avoid LA rules. " Really? HAULS a 34' boat every day? That sounds either terribly unique or terribly pricey, I'm thinking the odds are that you are getting your leg pulled. Could be an expensive trip. But then again, I'd a card-carrying skeptic and I'm required to bring these things up.

The homeless are homeless for a variety of reasons. Giving them all derelict boats and expecting anything except a batch of sunken boats six months later, is unrealistic. Yes, one or two or five out of the hundred may get fixed up, but the majority will become submerged wrecks, because just giving away "shelter" isn't what many of the homeless want =or= need the most. And then there's the question of where to put all those boats.

Far cheaper and simpler to give them all tents on the village green. No, wait a minute, that has been done, here in the US, right in DC actually, when homeless veterans camped on the Mall after WW1. And the government eventually called out troops to route them.

And in NYC, where there were shantytowns in what is now Central Park (routed by brute force) and Pelham Bay (also moved by force).

Changing from tents and shanties to derelict boats will only add to an environmental disaster when it comes time to clean them up.

Flying to LA (LA? SF?) to see a boat that is hauled(?) every day....I hope that's a short flight for you!

[Vancefish]

No, takes it out of the slip, and sails it every day. Pays for a slip, but they rarely see him or the boat in the marina during the day.

Funny thing about this diversion from the original topic is,.. My goal will be to get this SF bay boat through the canal and over to Florida (I want to cruise the islands).

So Sailorchic, If I buy a boat near you this week? My goal will be to get it over to Florida in a year-ish or so. I'd likely take the opportunity to sail around the Pacific NW up to Alaska (as long as I'm already there). ;-)

I grew up in Colorado. DRY as a bone! I'm only 43. Not into dating older people. I'm not that comfortable in excess humidity either. (odd eh?) lol

[hellosailor]

Ah, sails it every day. What's the fun it that? (VBG)

Bear in mind, it is going to cost you a minimum of $1500 and more likely $2000 to get a boat through the Panama Canal these days. Not like in the 70's when the Pardy's did it for under five dollars.

Sounds like he takes good care of it though.

[Vancefish]

I looked at that last week. Boats under 50' cost $800 (Plus any other unrelated crap you might buy while doing it). Plus the supplies to make the trip... So, yea $1500 is about right maybe a little more .

[hellosailor]

Last time I looked (last year) the base price was before surcharges and mandatory other fees, so read carefully for options and extras. Plus moorage for several days to weeks at the entrance, depending on the other games being played at the time. And of course, the time to get there, unless the long cruise is fun vacation time.

Not that I blame the new owners for charging money. Five dollars doesn't get a lot of water in motion these days.

[Vancefish]

I should say, It looks like he kept the boat in pretty sail-able shape. It needs paint on the topside (I like that!). Some internal trim is missing. There's a hole in the side of the cockpit from some removed piece of equipment (he has it sealed with a patch of some sort). It needs a headliner...

Engine and tranny have "200 hours", head, bottom(supposedly done last year), all the electronics are "new".

If I fly down to see it I'll likely find a bit more. :-)

Addition/Edit: The guy is in his mid 60's, says he wants a motorhome. lol

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

You did ask. Here you go...

Luckily Google is our friend. The state McAteer-Petris act, established the BCDC. The Act became law in 1969 and has been amended over the years. The McAteer_ Petris Act is part of the California land trust and is how our friends at BCDC came into existence. So yes its actually a state Law. ...

Sorry, while it may have been an act of the State Legislature to create the District, any rules or regulations promulgated by the BCDC apply ONLY to the district. Actual STATE LAWS apply to the whole state.

So, the earlier statements that there are CALIFORNIA LAWS restricting percentage of liveaboard slips in any marina, or minimum length requirements to qualify as a liveaboard vessel, remain unfounded rumor.

Hint: there is at least one marina in So Cal that has a 50% limit, and that is just the rule established by the management of the marina.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Sorry, while it may have been an act of the State Legislature to create the District, any rules or regulations promulgated by the BCDC apply ONLY to the district. Actual STATE LAWS apply to the whole state.

So, the earlier statements that there are CALIFORNIA LAWS restricting percentage of liveaboard slips in any marina, or minimum length requirements to qualify as a liveaboard vessel, remain unfounded rumor.

Sorry, It's a state law in that it was founded at the state level. But it only apples to the SF Bay and Delta. But the BCDC California state planning and regulatory agency, founded by the state to enforce development regulations in the SF bay area.



No the BCDC does not apply to SOCAL. the BCDC website lists that it's enforcement is state law. BCDC - San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission

[Brewgyver]

It's really not that complicated. The original statements I took issue with were

Well, it bizarrely is a law in the great state of california. No live aboard less than 34' (in a marina). No more than 10% of the marina can be live aboard.

and

In California, there is generally a size limitation. Plus the number of liveaboards in a marina is set by the state at 10%

I think it's been more than amply pointed out that there is no such State Law.

BTW, you

State laws apply to the whole state, and all persons, businesses, etc. in the state. Municipal ordinances ONLY apply in the municipality in question, and District Regulations ONLY apply within the defined boundaries of the District.

No the BCDC does not apply to SOCAL.

Not only do the BCDC Regs not apply to So Cal, they don't apply ANYWHERE else in the State, but ONLY in the areas defined under the two acts. Do BCDC Regs have force of law WITHIN the BDCD jurisdiction? Arguably yes, but even then, enforcement is usually via a lawsuit filed by BCDC.

And to this moment, in this an other threads on the subject, nobody has been able to cite ANY actual BCDC Regulation, much less state law, imposing either a percentage limit on number of liveabaoard slips or on any minimum boat length. There may well be such a District reg, but if so, nobody has cited it.

In case why anybody wants to know why I'd care about such an old thread, I found it using google. A lot of people justifiably consider CF and Sailnet (to name but two) to be repositories of useful information and may base decisions based on that info, so I think it's worthwhile to point out significant errors.

[chowdan]

I dont think your asking about length of boat, rather than slip size vs actual size of the boat.

Being in Seattle, my marina is semi strict, but not bad. I would say if you were OVERLY large, then you would run into trouble, but its not un-heard of someone with a 40ft boat in a 40ft slip extend beyond their limit and not have issues.

A gent i know has a WestSail 32 in a 32 slip. He has a windvane hanging off the back a good foot or two. No one gripes about it.

[sailorchic34]

Dear Brewgyver,

The BCDC is run at the state level and was founded as part of the McAteer-Petris Act at the state level. . The BCDC laws are revised in the state house, just about yearly and it had many folks on it's board that are state level employees. This is different then city or county level government. Yes the BCDC only applies to the SF bay and Delta area's, but Yes it is a state law.

You can have a state law or tax that only impacts part of the state. Done in every state in the country. For example, in most of the counties of california (34 of 58), the state requires that cars be smogged. But in 24 counties the cars are exempt from that law. It's still a state law, just enforced in only some counties, state wide..

The BCDC rules related to boats can be read here ->www.bcdc.ca.gov/planning/reports/HouseboatsAndLiveAboardBoats_Jul1985.pdf

Downloads a PDF for your reading pleasure.

BTW The boat length requirement is a Local Marina requirement and varies all over the place. The percent of liveaboards in the Bay area is set by the state via the BCDC at 10%.

Some marina's will take a tape measure and measure the overall length. Most will take your word on it. Most marinas charge by either the length of the slip or the length of the boat which ever is larger. But not always.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

In California, there is generally a size limitation. Plus the number of liveaboards in a marina is set by the state at 10%, though loosely enforced...

Sailorchic, please re-read your own post from the first page of this thread. You didn't specify the Bay area or BCDC jusrisdiction, you said the State set the 10% limit in ALL marinas, which of course is not true.

That post, and the one before it by Jeepbluetj, were the reasons I (and others) asked for somebody to cite that state law, which still hasn't happened.

Here's an example cite of a state law pertaining to boating:
Harbors and Navigation Code - HNC § 780
(a) A person shall not disconnect, bypass, or operate a marine sanitation device so as to discharge sewage into the waters of this state, unless the particular discharge is expressly authorized or permitted pursuant to state or federal law or regulations.  A violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.

(b) The following prohibitions apply in no-discharge areas:

(1) A person shall not disconnect, bypass, or operate a marine sanitation device so as to potentially discharge sewage.

(2) A person shall not occupy or operate a vessel in which a marine sanitation device is installed unless the marine sanitation device is properly secured.

The first violation of this subdivision is an infraction punishable by a fine of up to five hundred dollars ($500).  A second or subsequent violation of this subdivision by any one person is a misdemeanor.

(c) A person found guilty of a misdemeanor violation of subdivision (a) or (b) shall be subject to a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed six months, or both that fine and imprisonment.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Sailorchic, please re-read your own post from the first page of this thread. You didn't specify the Bay area or BCDC jusrisdiction, you said the State set the 10% limit in ALL marinas, which of course is not true.

Yes I may have insinuated that the 10% was state wide in my first post. I did however clarify that in later posts, as I'm pretty sure you know. The State founded and funds the BCDC. It's commissioners are state employees. Well OK two of the 27 are feds. Yes they, the BCDC, set that 10% liveaboard rule that "only" applies to the 40 marina's in the SF Bay and lower delta. That's only about 750 miles of water ways, bays and rivers, with 40 marina's and 11,000 (give or take) slips.



As to what law calls for the 10%, From a Bay Crossing story: Reprinted here for your reading pleasure. Link here->Bay Crossings

How was the limit of 10% live-aboards per marina arrived at, and how can it have the force of law?
Sections 66632(f) and 66651(d) of the McAteer-Petris Act require the Commission to issue permits for activities that are consistent with the provisions of the Act and the San Francisco Bay Plan. Section 66651(d) also allows the Commission to incorporate special area plans, such as the one for Richardson Bay, into the Bay Plan. Section 66652 allows the Commission to amend the Bay Plan. Thus, the Bay Plan and Richardson Bay Special Area Plan policies have the full force and effect of law.


The Bay Plan policy limiting live-aboard berths to ten percent of the total berths in a marina was adopted after a long public debate and much input from the boating and marina community in the mid 1980s.



The Commission concluded that having residents living in a recreational marina would provide additional security for recreational boating, a primary trust use. Therefore, the Commission decided a limited amount of residential use on live-aboard boats could be considered ancillary to a water-oriented use and consistent with the public trust. The Commission decided that the best way to define "ancillary" administratively was to establish a numerical standard for the amount of residential use.


LLAP

[osii]

In Cali it's 35 feet LOA. A lot of shorter boats put on a bowsprit to make it work. But in FL I had no problem living on a 26 footer. But that was 20 years ago.