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Old 18-03-2015, 16:10   #16
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Re: How much to spend

Would echo what has been mentioned - pay cash for the boat and have $ in reserve for repair/maintenance. Recommend looking for months (I searched for 2.5yrs for current boat), crawl around on a number of boats to develop an understanding of condition/equipment versus asking price. Appears you are settled on a specific boat which makes buying less complicated, so when you are inspecting boats you can compare "apples-to-apples". I would research the boat you are interested in, across a number of model years, to find out if any issues (eg under-sized engine heat exchangers) that should be addressed. I recently bought an older boat (1978) at the end of last season (live in Ct, USA)which resulted in a major price reduction, but also set aside approximately 25% of the selling price for anticipated repairs/replacement (eg standing rigging, running rigging, chain plate inspection, GPS, etc). Enjoy the search..
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Old 18-03-2015, 16:33   #17
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pirate Re: How much to spend

I'm kinda single.. meaning anyone who sails with me has to tolerate my minimums.. male chauvanist pig that I am..
I look at the least space I'm prepared to exist in then search that size for a boat that meets what I can afford..
Usually its 85% of my liquidity and I sail as long as the rest plus what I can pick up along the way lasts, till I'm just about broke.. then I'll sell sometimes a profit.. most times not.. but I've now some cash in hand to start again.. 14 boats to date costing from $1500 to $75000.. all did significant mileage..
How many people.. determines size/storage/tankage/accomodation
How much you feel safe losing.. coz you can.. even insured as someone discovered in Vanuatu when Pam wrecked his boat..
Cat5 Cyclones excluded...
Mono or Cat.. are you fixated on one type.. or.. anything that'll get you cruising
Go online and search for boats that match the above..
If prepared to risk a fly and buy you can get a good deal..

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Old 18-03-2015, 16:57   #18
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Re: How much to spend

You have some boating background, but never having owned a sailboat makes it a tad more difficult. Most of us who have been through the process ahve determined what it is we like and dislike and have good reasons for it. Along the way, we have researched til our eyes bled, and absorbed all sorts of information from the internet and from friends, all of whom have opinions. That background story gives us some basic feelings for "value" of comparative boats and years.

What you're asking is "How do I get all this experience with going through the experiences?"

Only YOU can determine how much you want to spend on ANYTHING, boat, house, cars, dinners...

No one here can, or should, answer that question and I think the responses have been pretty spot in in their sensitivity to that.

Some people are gamblers. Some people are boaters. Some people would say both are irresponsible.

We started buying boats in 1983. Newer bigger one in 1987. Our current in 1998. We spent a year each buying the second two boats. We compared new vs. used and came to the opposite conclusion that Monte did.

But neither one of us was wrong and both of us have boats we really like.

Consider it a process.

Good luck.
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Old 18-03-2015, 17:04   #19
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Re: How much to spend

Yes buying a boat is a big investment, well sometimes. You can spend anything you want but the important thing is to get what you want/need. If you buy a boat that is not right you will never be happy with it so the only real question is 'will this boat do what I want'. Does not matter if it is 20K or 200k and you can only find the answer buy looking at a particular boat that is for sale. My advice is look at as many as possible then choose the cheapest one that meets your needs or the one that you fall in love with and just don't want to get off (preferably both).
The other thing is that lots of people buying there first bat don't think about maintenance and running costs. A large cat is going to rack up substantial mooring charges, the difference in cost for replacing a halyard on a 40ft boat is double what it would be on a 35 footer. It is one thing to be comfortable wil the purchase cost but you also need to be comfortable with running it not worrying in case something needs doing.
The other thing that may be worth thinking about is where the 'value' is in the boat and how it will age. Lightweight and fashionable interiors look tired and dated in a few years. Classic solid wood mellows and just needs a coat of varnish. The latest electronics are 'old hat' in 3-5 years max. That solid semi commercial radio that they fit on fish boats will still be going strong in 10years. Lightweight sails may be shot in less than 10 years but I have seen good cruising sails last 25. I work on a rule of thumb that that value of the boat should be about 25% for each of; Hull, Rig & sails, Engine & machinery, Interior fittings. It is also worth remembering that if you rally get the right boat it may be your children who sell it! some boats last 100yrs
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Old 18-03-2015, 17:33   #20
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pirate Re: How much to spend

Question.. where do you plan to keep her.. or.. will you be planning to cruise..
Reason I ask is two-fold..
1/ Is the Euro/your currency.. in your favour..
2/ are you looking at something up for sale locally and in what currency.. Aus/US$
Either way check out Apolloduck.com and compare prices of the EU vs Caribe and whats taken your fancy.
Factor in $37K for Delivery by ship.. I believe thats what Atolls delivery from Spain to Singapore cost..
If the Caribe.. by ship no idea but its easy to get a quote.. same by sea.. the ship is kinder.
If local.. if the survey and price is good.. go for it.
If the going gets tough its definitly not roughing it..
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Old 18-03-2015, 17:49   #21
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Re: How much to spend

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Originally Posted by Jamjar View Post
Thanks Im happy with the price range it's a case of deciding he much I can afford to spend...

How did other boat owners say I have this much in cash this in investments therefore I can spend the on a boat, I'm budgeting 10% annual maint.

But how do people determine how much they can afford to spend on the boat itself ?
How old are you, Brother? At the risk of sounding like Dad lecturing, I suggest you set rules for yourself. For example, never take out a loan for anything other than a house mortgage. Everything else paid in full when you buy it.

The answer you seek will become clear once you've established the discipline.
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Old 18-03-2015, 18:28   #22
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Re: How much to spend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar View Post

but... for those who already have boats i would be interested to know how other people set their boat buying budget?

How did you determine that you could afford to spend $100 on this boat so that you could then look at that range of boats available for $100....

.
How much do you currently save each month? That minus $500-1000/mo is how much you can afford to spend to buy a boat. The $500-1000/mo is how much it will cost you to have a boat.
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Old 19-03-2015, 05:23   #23
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Re: How much to spend

I don't mean to be derogatory and I appreciate the fact that the OP is seeking help from informed sources. That is a wise move. However, I have to ask myself how a 30 year old who has managed to put themself in a position to comfortably afford a $200k sailboat has to ask others if they can afford to do so. Questions on which boat, upkeep, and operating costs, and other boat/use questions, absolutely! Get all the information you need to make an informed decision. Your question is well posed and you seem to understand that much personal financial and lifestyle data would be needed in order for anyone to provide useful advice to you on how much to spend. Monte provides good practical direction. With double your life experience, my advice (given with all good intentions) would be that if you question your own judgement in knowing how much you can afford or should spend, perhaps you are not ready for the rigors of cruising. If the boat is going to be a dockside condo and occasional day sailor... Well, it's your money, so I'd advise to buy whatever makes you feel good and never, never consider it an "investment" financially. It's a lifestyle cost, period. A wise person once opined that if it floats, flies, or f*%#\ ... Rent it. Perhaps a year or so of chartering will bring more confidence in your judgement on the financial issues.
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Old 19-03-2015, 06:22   #24
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Re: How much to spend

I appreciate the direct response from Tanzer and the help provided by all.

It seems I have gone the wrong way at this, having lusted over boats for many years and thinking I would never be able to afford a Cat, I was fortunate enough to sell the business I spent 5 years building earlier this year and have now been retained by the buyer to continue to run the business which was integrated into their existing business.

I am basically a 30 year old expatriate living in possibly the worst place in the world for boat ownership. A least Developed Country (LDC) in
South East Asia. We have 1 marina in the entire country and it is 2 hours from my beach house and 4 hours from my place in the city where I work.

(Given there is no marina here, I will be looking to put down a swing mooring, in the bay where my beach house is. Its shallow and well protected but security is a concern).

I have been reasonably fortunate but not so fortunate that I can retire and never worry about money again,

There a lot of metrics for measuring Personal financial security, ratios for liquid assets, property assets equities, commodities etc. all sorts of (hopefully) appreciating financial assets that provide a financial return.

What I am looking for is really some guidance over how people made decisions over what type of boat they can afford, and how they decided I can afford to spend X on a boat given the high future cost and depreciating nature of the asset. I benefit from a reasonably low cost of living, low taxes and a mid range salary by western standards.

My intention is not to quit my job, when younger I fantasized about sailing around the world, but I know that there are a huge number of dreamers that do that, and most never do. Being realistic, I'm looking at using the boat short term for holidays and weekend trips, with some business entertaining.

Some of the people above have been helpful giving ratios of say 80% boat 20% contingency cash. Other have helped refine my cost estimates for delivery. All appreciated.

I'm starting to develop a formulae for my budget and purchase, and looking at:
25K for delivery and dealing with immediate costs.
25K liquid post purchase and
Boat budget of 150k - 180k

There is a beauty in Singapore at the moment which would save a fortune on delivery costs.

Why do I need help with this, I'm immature, risk averse, and fundamentally hate spending a big chunk of capital. But I appreciate the value of the non financial return and I want to understand the way others have approached this as all boat owners must have faced this dilemma at some point??

Perhaps my problem is that I have decided on a boat before setting a budget on what I would like to spend.

This has been incredibly helpful, thanks for the replies and shared knowledge.
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Old 19-03-2015, 06:26   #25
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Re: How much to spend

The other thing to consider is your mechanical aptitude. A cruising boat is a collection of systems, all of which must be assessed, brought up to snuff and then maintained. Some require periodic maintenance. Some you fix only when they break. But you need a plan for each one. And without having done it much, you don't know what that plan should look like yet.

All of these things require your confidence with your toolkit and your confidence in contingency planning. Layer on the vagaries of weather and you've got a fun mountain to climb.

Owning a smaller boat for a couple of years, even an older one, will help you build that confidence. Leaving the pier with absolute confidence that you've mitigated 95% of issues, and are prepared to handle the remainder should they occur is a great feeling.

Or what the hell, just buy the damned thing and pay people to maintain and sail it! But to me, that would be like heading into a fog bank....

I was about your age when I bought my first cruising boat - an older Pearson 10M. That boat taught me volumes. Now, when a guest climbs aboard my boat(s), they know immediately it is well-found and safe.
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Old 19-03-2015, 06:33   #26
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Re: How much to spend

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Jam, I was I was in the same boat as you a few years ago, pretty much decided on a lagoon 380, looked at used, looked at new. Ended up buying a new one. Really happy with our choice and guessing about what the future holds didn't really come into the decision. Looking back we made a great choice for us.
I'd never chartered or owned a big boat before that as I thought that was money down the drain when we couldn't use it a lot, so saved the money and waited till we could get the most out of our investment, which is full time living aboard. So far so good...
So for me, owning a 200k boat that I could only sail 10 weekends a year and the odd week over the Victorian summer want a good option. But owning one to live aboard and travel the world is another thing entirely.
As far as how much savings you need to do it, it depends on your comfort level I guess. For us it was having enough assets to be able to do it indefinitely, for some it's just getting the boat and working their way around the world and worrying about the future later.
So if you're comfortable with dropping 10% a year on your investment for the benefits, then go for it, if not it's probably better to wait till you are. One thing that you really need to do is make sure you have enough in the kitty for any unforeseen expenses and expect the unexpected.
Boat stuff isn't cheap, marinas can charge up to $100 a night and you don't even want to go there but for some reason you have to, so you don't want to be feeling bad about parting with the cash. Other stuff adds up, like insurance 5K, haul outs and storage 5K, miscellaneous bits and upgrades 5K etc.
So my advice would be, if your ready to set sail and enjoy it, it's worth very cent. But if you're still tied to land life and can't get away as much as you would like, it's probably better to sail other peoples boats till you can.
If you want a magic % of assets Vs money invested in a boat, I'd say don't spend more than 30% of your fixed assets ( real estate, cash in the bank etc ) on a boat, but like I said, everyone's comfort level is different.
Good luck. If you have any specific questions on the 380 drop me a line or ask here.
honestly this is fantastic, it is a huge help.

I am very interested in how you made the decision to buy new... How did you manage the delivery process?

I had ruled this out, given the immediate hit on depn, Lagoons reputation for customer service and the set up costs...
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Old 19-03-2015, 06:37   #27
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Re: How much to spend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar View Post
I appreciate the direct response from Tanzer and the help provided by all.

It seems I have gone the wrong way at this, having lusted over boats for many years and thinking I would never be able to afford a Cat, I was fortunate enough to sell the business I spent 5 years building earlier this year and have now been retained by the buyer to continue to run the business which was integrated into their existing business.

I am basically a 30 year old expatriate living in possibly the worst place in the world for boat ownership. A least Developed Country (LDC) in
South East Asia. We have 1 marina in the entire country and it is 2 hours from my beach house and 4 hours from my place in the city where I work.

(Given there is no marina here, I will be looking to put down a swing mooring, in the bay where my beach house is. Its shallow and well protected but security is a concern).

I have been reasonably fortunate but not so fortunate that I can retire and never worry about money again,

There a lot of metrics for measuring Personal financial security, ratios for liquid assets, property assets equities, commodities etc. all sorts of (hopefully) appreciating financial assets that provide a financial return.

What I am looking for is really some guidance over how people made decisions over what type of boat they can afford, and how they decided I can afford to spend X on a boat given the high future cost and depreciating nature of the asset. I benefit from a reasonably low cost of living, low taxes and a mid range salary by western standards.

My intention is not to quit my job, when younger I fantasized about sailing around the world, but I know that there are a huge number of dreamers that do that, and most never do. Being realistic, I'm looking at using the boat short term for holidays and weekend trips, with some business entertaining.

Some of the people above have been helpful giving ratios of say 80% boat 20% contingency cash. Other have helped refine my cost estimates for delivery. All appreciated.

I'm starting to develop a formulae for my budget and purchase, and looking at:
25K for delivery and dealing with immediate costs.
25K liquid post purchase and
Boat budget of 150k - 180k

There is a beauty in Singapore at the moment which would save a fortune on delivery costs.

Why do I need help with this, I'm immature, risk averse, and fundamentally hate spending a big chunk of capital. But I appreciate the value of the non financial return and I want to understand the way others have approached this as all boat owners must have faced this dilemma at some point??

Perhaps my problem is that I have decided on a boat before setting a budget on what I would like to spend.

This has been incredibly helpful, thanks for the replies and shared knowledge.
This is the information you should have shared in the beginning.

If the vessel is going to be for day sails around your home, and you have access to good repair personnel, ie cheap...... then buy a solid cheaper boat.
Use it abuse it and have fun.

If you want a better boat for extended cruising, then spend a little more. What is the point in having $180K tied up in a boat you sit on to have a cocktail on a swing mooring?

Depending on which country you live in, it might even be cheaper to have a Catamaran built to your specifications.

If your not going to live on it, and use it as described, then seriously any well maintained, good reputation Catamaran will do for your first boat. Find one with space for your entertainment requirements. There are plenty of Cats available cheaply in Asia. Once you know what you want in 3 years then start looking for one that fits your next stage of boat ownership.

Why waste money on a long distance delivery when you have them on your doorstep?

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Old 19-03-2015, 07:41   #28
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Re: How much to spend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar View Post
I appreciate the direct response from Tanzer and the help provided by all.

It seems I have gone the wrong way at this, having lusted over boats for many years and thinking I would never be able to afford a Cat, I was fortunate enough to sell the business I spent 5 years building earlier this year and have now been retained by the buyer to continue to run the business which was integrated into their existing business.

I am basically a 30 year old expatriate living in possibly the worst place in the world for boat ownership. A least Developed Country (LDC) in
South East Asia. We have 1 marina in the entire country and it is 2 hours from my beach house and 4 hours from my place in the city where I work.

(Given there is no marina here, I will be looking to put down a swing mooring, in the bayf where my beach house is. Its shallow and well protected but security is a concern).

I have been reasonably fortunate but not so fortunate that I can retire and never worry about money again,

There a lot of metrics for measuring Personal financial security, ratios for liquid assets, property assets equities, commodities etc. all sorts of (hopefully) appreciating financial assets that provide a financial return.

What I am looking for is really some guidance over how people made decisions over what type of boat they can afford, and how they decided I can afford to spend X on a boat given the high future cost and depreciating nature of the asset. I benefit from a reasonably low cost of living, low taxes and a mid range salary by western standards.

My intention is not to quit my job, when younger I fantasized about sailing around the world, but I know that there are a huge number of dreamers that do that, and most never do. Being realistic, I'm looking at using the boat short term for holidays and weekend trips, with some business entertaining.

Some of the people above have been helpful giving ratios of say 80% boat 20% contingency cash. Other have helped refine my cost estimates for delivery. All appreciated.

I'm starting to develop a formulae for my budget and purchase, and looking at:
25K for delivery and dealing with immediate costs.
25K liquid post purchase and
Boat budget of 150k - 180k

There is a beauty in Singapore at the moment which would save a fortune on delivery costs.

Why do I need help with this, I'm immature, risk averse, and fundamentally hate spending a big chunk of capital. But I appreciate the value of the non financial return and I want to understand the way others have approached this as all boat owners must have faced this dilemma at some point??

Perhaps my problem is that I have decided on a boat before setting a budget on what I would like to spend.

This has been incredibly helpful, thanks for the replies and shared knowledge.
Thanks for understanding my good intentions. With the additional information, perhaps more practical advice will be forthcoming. Have had boats at marinas not convenient to where I lived, once on a mooring. Never again. I am currently looking for my "last" boat which will be used for coastal cruising on the US east coast. My first priority is finding a marina I like no farther than 30 minutes from where the house commander rules her kingdom... with the marina determining that location. Though retired with plenty of time, I know that having a boat even an hour away will result in my using it less and less and keeping it properly maintained becoming a chore rather than an act of love. Fact (to be confired by the crowd): true cruisers and racers LIVE with their boats; for the rest of us, the closer (convenience wise, not necessarily time/distance) you are to your boat, the better. Otherwise, after an initial flurry of sailing weekends, the boats sit unused being consumed by neglect. Given the situation you described, my recommendation would be charter until you are better able to have very easy access to your boat. The only thing you lose is pride of ownership, a fleeting thing in most cases
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Old 19-03-2015, 08:41   #29
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Re: How much to spend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar View Post
Am I being a fool to consider putting such a high percentage of my liquid resources into such an expensive toy without having built up solid experiance first?

Jamjar
I've always spent more than I have, borrowed more than I should, and bought more than I needed, and never looked back.. And I've done more than many have only dreamed about.. I've worked hard and Played hard.. And Oh have I played.. And loved every minute of it.. And I love My TOYS..
Dont worry about the funds, Spend the money for what you want, Make the decission, and then, make the decission you made, the right one..
And last, remember, budgets are for weenies.............................RG

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winds in your sails. Explore.
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