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Old 14-05-2019, 18:54   #16
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
..."100k refit 2 years ago" is what will increase the selling price.


It can increase the selling price somewhat, generally limited by typical prices for a boat of same make/model/condition, but it wont increase it by $100K. Whereas well chosen improvments on real estate can easily increase value more than the amount spent (thats the basis on which "flips" work).
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Old 15-05-2019, 07:03   #17
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

My take is that the improvements are nearly worthless, but may help it sell.
Just like swimming pools supposedly add no value to a house, but Id pay more and be more likely to buy a house with a pool, maybe not much more, but would be more likely to buy with than without.
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Old 15-05-2019, 07:57   #18
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

My dealer says the number one thing to decrease time to sale is to clean and declutter, just like I house I guess. Don't know if that affects value, but not selling your boat is a lousy price. I looked at the 14 Tayana 37s for sale in the US (yachtworld). All were between 32 and 42 years old so I don't think age is much of a value determiner. They ranged in price from $42k to $92k. Nine of 14 were priced between $50 and $60). Those well equipped and with new or newish engines and sails were listed in the $60k and above. They also tended to have newer electronics and sails and are better equipped (wind vane, solar panels, etc). In general, it looks like the refurbished boats are asking, in general, about $10k more than those needing work. A new engine, new sails, a windvane, electronics, solar would probably add 3 to 4 times that in cost by buying the cheaper boat and fixing it up. And of course, these are asking prices. For example, in Washington there are two well equipped, engine replaced boats at $92k and $69k respectively. Can't imagine someone paying the premium. (In fairness, I just did a quick look at all the listings. A detailed look might provide the "ah ha" moment)
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Old 15-05-2019, 08:56   #19
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

I looked at a 51 Shannon. It had been totally redone inside with apartment house type cabinets, tables, cupboards, etc.
All I could see was that all that crap would need to come out and capable fixtures installed. The contractor thought his "improvements" had increased the value of the vessel.
All it could be used for was a live-a-board tied to a dock.
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Old 15-05-2019, 09:01   #20
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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I looked at a 51 Shannon. It had been totally redone inside with apartment house type cabinets, tables, cupboards, etc.
All I could see was that all that crap would need to come out and capable fixtures installed. The contractor thought his "improvements" had increased the value of the vessel.
All it could be used for was a live-a-board tied to a dock.
Doing that to a Shannon is a crime.
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Old 15-05-2019, 09:23   #21
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

We searched for about a year before we bought our Cape Dory 31 in '13. The long shopping was time well spent for it refined exactly what were looking for.

We learned a few things.

1. Desirable models by well-known makers sell quickly, though not necessarily at a premium.

2. Upgrades were not worth more than a fraction of their original cost. For example, a new engine in our boat cost over $20 installed in '17, but I doubt it would add half that to the price.

3. What upgrades can do is make a certain model stand out from other similar boats on the market, which can mean a faster sale.

4. Boats ain't houses. Nothing about them appreciates.

Good luck!
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Old 15-05-2019, 09:28   #22
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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An unrelated cruisers forum got me thinking. A member had a Cal 46 sailboat for sale for $250,000. He got pounded for it as a number of us noticed that the average asking price for the eleven other Cal 46 was $70,000. His listing said he'd put $500k in a total refit. So, he is really only asking to get about 40% on the dollar what he put in to it. Years ago I did a similar thing. I bought a Kettenberg 38 for $18k, totally refitted it for $75k and after sitting on the market for a year or so ended up selling it for $18k. My son is looking for his first offshore boat. I've suggested he look for an older boat that has a relatively high asking price. Perhaps it's been repowered, rerigged, or rewired. Now if he had the time and desire I'd probably suggest he get a fixer upper, but he wants to go sailing and buying used is his only economic option. In the housing world there are lots of studies as to what improvements get what kind of return. Is there such thing for boats? What do you think are the best ROI improvements, or perhaps of more interest to my son, the worst ROI - let someone else fix it first.
Boats are like airplanes but believe me, an airplane has much more potential for being a black hole with no return. A couple of examples, a buddy bought a good bones aircraft fairly cheap and put 45K into it. Nice plane but it sold for market value and he lost around 25K but did enjoy it. The other example is a very nice Bonanza had an avonics upgrade that cost 65K resulted in the value only going up 6K but he was okay with.

The point being, neither of these are investments so you do what you want and enjoy the upgrades. Good luck to your son, great advice on this forum.
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Old 15-05-2019, 09:44   #23
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

Seller: The boat has new batteries!
Buyer: I expect the boat to have batteries, nothing new, no added value.
Seller: I redid the rigging!
Buyer: I expect the boat to have rigging, this is in good shape, thanks.
Seller: Look, new salon cushions.
Buyer: Nice looking salon, this may place the boat higher on the list of purchase, but not at that price!
Seller: This boat comes with a dinghy and outboard.
Buyer: That's convenient, but I'm not paying for it.

You get the picture.....
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Old 15-05-2019, 12:04   #24
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

But I need you to pay that price because I need that amount for my new RV. PLEASE!
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Old 15-05-2019, 12:32   #25
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

I recently bought a 20-year old boat, in good overall condition, but needing some upgrades. I know that the money I put into new standing rigging, batteries, and solar panels will *not* increase the value to a potential future buyer, I'm putting in that money for me. I want the peace of mind of new rigging, especially if I'm offshore. I want the functionality of new batteries and solar panels so that I can run the electrical systems longer before needing to run the engine or generator. I want cold beer and hard ice cream, to quote Rich Boren. Those are my choices, and I don't expect to recover that outlay when I sell the boat. Putting any money into a boat to try and increase resale value is a fool's errand.
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Old 15-05-2019, 12:34   #26
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
An unrelated cruisers forum got me thinking. A member had a Cal 46 sailboat for sale for $250,000. He got pounded for it as a number of us noticed that the average asking price for the eleven other Cal 46 was $70,000. His listing said he'd put $500k in a total refit. So, he is really only asking to get about 40% on the dollar what he put in to it. Years ago I did a similar thing. I bought a Kettenberg 38 for $18k, totally refitted it for $75k and after sitting on the market for a year or so ended up selling it for $18k. My son is looking for his first offshore boat. I've suggested he look for an older boat that has a relatively high asking price. Perhaps it's been repowered, rerigged, or rewired. Now if he had the time and desire I'd probably suggest he get a fixer upper, but he wants to go sailing and buying used is his only economic option. In the housing world there are lots of studies as to what improvements get what kind of return. Is there such thing for boats? What do you think are the best ROI improvements, or perhaps of more interest to my son, the worst ROI - let someone else fix it first.
The boat's make, model, year, reputation, location, and condition are the key to its market value.

The price for boats with high production runs is easier to judge because there are others out there for sale,; small production runs and one-offs not so much.

Some make/models have a better following (demand) but maybe on one coast versus the other. Boats with certain features can be either a plus or a big minus depending on the buyer, i.e. center cockpit, wood decking.

Certain boats that are built custom or semi-custom can quickly become a looser with a new-to-boating owner that pays for an outrageous non- standard configuration...he gets the boat he wants but nobody else wants it; if you look at enough ads they are out there.

The buyer should wear two hats...also thinking as a seller several years down the road.

Lastly, my neighbor, who is known to be very tight with a dollar, finally sold his 44' boat that he has been advertising for the last 13+ years. It was a very nice well cared for clean boat but he was continually just asking too much for it.

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Old 15-05-2019, 14:44   #27
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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"Bottom job 10 years ago" means your boat has a crapload of deferred maintenance because you cannot even get the little things right. In addition, you are too ignorant to even realize it. Yet I see that all the time in listings.
Or the corollary to that which is the user that has done next to no updates and has tons of deferred maintenance but wants to charge the same as boats in much much better condition. I had an offer on an Admiral last year but after the survey showed some very expensive issues (boom cracked and a missing rigid vang for example) he went ballistic over the counter offer.

So, its not only wanting to get more out of the expenses but also trying to get more over no expenses!
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Old 15-05-2019, 16:06   #28
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

Message to ZZMeyer. What is your son looking for? A good offshore STIFF cruiser with shoal draft, setup for single handing, leisure furl in boom and lots of sails, new standing and running, electronics, bottom and topsides new paint etc...the works? I trust this is allowed to state that? I just bought another boat.
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Old 15-05-2019, 16:52   #29
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

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Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
An unrelated cruisers forum got me thinking. A member had a Cal 46 sailboat for sale for $250,000. He got pounded for it as a number of us noticed that the average asking price for the eleven other Cal 46 was $70,000. His listing said he'd put $500k in a total refit. So, he is really only asking to get about 40% on the dollar what he put in to it. Years ago I did a similar thing. I bought a Kettenberg 38 for $18k, totally refitted it for $75k and after sitting on the market for a year or so ended up selling it for $18k. My son is looking for his first offshore boat. I've suggested he look for an older boat that has a relatively high asking price. Perhaps it's been repowered, rerigged, or rewired. Now if he had the time and desire I'd probably suggest he get a fixer upper, but he wants to go sailing and buying used is his only economic option. In the housing world there are lots of studies as to what improvements get what kind of return. Is there such thing for boats? What do you think are the best ROI improvements, or perhaps of more interest to my son, the worst ROI - let someone else fix it first.
The person who put 500k into a Cal 46, well, wasn't thinking if was not his forever boat then he wasted 400k of the money because as you found out (in your experience) it was a 70k boat when finished....

Best deals are where the big tickets are done, engine, sails, anchor system and mast with rigging come to mind and it's mostly cosmetic stuff left, which much of it you can live with for years if you want to....

I think you can get 20k back on a new engine and 12k on new mast/rigging....
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Old 15-05-2019, 19:13   #30
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Re: How much to pay for someone else's improvements?

His dad has the offshore cruiser. Looking for a Southern California cruiser as he waits for me to die. I’m guessing something like a 2000 Catalina 36. Replace sails and standard rigging. Although the older fixer boats appeal to his emotion his work probably doesn’t give him time.
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