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Old 28-11-2014, 10:29   #31
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

The used boat would still depreciate over the 3 years. Think of it as an actual age as opposed to an effective age. The refit lowers the effective age. Let's assume that if you buy the boat for $125 & then after you put $45 into it the boat is worth $170. If 3 years later the boat is worth $125 it depreciated $45,000 in 3 years. A lot of assumptions though. The boat could be worth more or less than you pay for it & the refit could contribute much less that it costs. In addition items in a refit depreciate a different rates. Electronics would depreciate rapidly while sails or cushions would depreciate at a much slower rate. Long lived items like rigging or seacocks, etc would depreciate very slowly.
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Old 28-11-2014, 10:57   #32
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Try Marine Survey 101 for tips on how to inspect a boat.
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Old 28-11-2014, 11:05   #33
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

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Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
The used boat would still depreciate over the 3 years. Think of it as an actual age as opposed to an effective age. The refit lowers the effective age. Let's assume that if you buy the boat for $125 & then after you put $45 into it the boat is worth $170. If 3 years later the boat is worth $125 it depreciated $45,000 in 3 years. A lot of assumptions though. The boat could be worth more or less than you pay for it & the refit could contribute much less that it costs. In addition items in a refit depreciate a different rates. Electronics would depreciate rapidly while sails or cushions would depreciate at a much slower rate. Long lived items like rigging or seacocks, etc would depreciate very slowly.
Yeah, hard to figure really. IMO, things like rigging, seacocks etc... have zero selling value after installation. Which your example pretty much said I think. ....: Buy it for $125k put $45k into it and you will likely get $125 K+ out of it when you sell it. But you may sell it faster than a boat that hasn't had work done.
As a buyer, I think the mind works: "Yes you put new seacocks and rigging on it, but that's maintenance...you didn't expect to sell it with those defects did you?"
I have done this a couple times. Bought a boat for $332k , put $55k into it immediately. (sails, rigging, teak deck rebuild+ more) Tried to sell the boat after two years and it took forever to sell and I got $332k less commissions out of it!
The best Bargains are guys who rebuild boats and then YOU buy it!
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Old 28-11-2014, 16:57   #34
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

If an older powerboat has good bones and mechanical systems, then they usually come with lots of rebuilt spares, pumps and electrics and older but decent electronics

Then the refit aspect is really boiling down to cosmetics and soft furnishings that are looking a bit tired and dated.

I think this is where many novices make the mistake of trying to make their old boat look like NEW.

Live and learn with it for 2 or 3 years, fixing only what is needed and assume you will add damages from novice mistakes

Then decide whether you wish to keep it or sell and buy your affordable dream boat.

If it has good bones it will depreciate very little

Assuming an older boat NEEDS a refit is often a novice owner worst mistake, especially if they view this as a trial boat.
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Old 28-11-2014, 18:36   #35
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Keep your options open. SOME older boats are good buys. Some arent.
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Old 28-11-2014, 18:37   #36
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Several folks have mentioned boats of under 40 ft. If you are thinking your dream boat will be 50+ feet I would be concerned about getting a starter boat much under 45 ft. My reasoning is that trying the lifestyle with less amenities than you are used to May be more like camping than you are comfortable with. My wife was willing to give it a try. I watched her carefully at several boat shows and on several friends boats. In her case I noticed that several things made her feel like this boat could only be a weekend type deal if the boat didn't have: a shower stall separate from the head its self, a bed that could be made without having to climb on it, a galley with a refrigerator similar to the one at home, and a clothes washer and dryer. These types of amenities are easy to find on 50 footers but get more rare the smaller they get.

Given enough money I would go for quality/new or nearly new or very high quality slightly older.

A well regarded surveyer said "If you can't afford a new boat you can't afford the same boat used. Sooner or later they will both cost about the same."
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Old 29-11-2014, 09:20   #37
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Dockhead "At 5 years, many systems are getting ready to give up the ghost. By 10 years, you will have replaced most things already" Your experience may not be typical. I have a 32-year-old Irwin 34 (not known as a high quality boat). I did the first refit at 30 years; and she looks and sails great. I have never even had the head off the engine; the mast, boom, all the standing rigging, the bow and stern rails, the winches, the binnacle, kitchen and bathroom sinks and faucets, the stove and propane tank, interior cushion tops and foam, headliners, cabin and deck hatches, hull, keel, hull liner and exterior teak are all original. The only major repairs have been painting the deck and replacing the exhaust manifold, head(toilet), shower liner, interior teak and ports.
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Old 29-11-2014, 09:55   #38
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
If an older powerboat has good bones and mechanical systems, then they usually come with lots of rebuilt spares, pumps and electrics and older but decent electronics

Then the refit aspect is really boiling down to cosmetics and soft furnishings that are looking a bit tired and dated.

I think this is where many novices make the mistake of trying to make their old boat look like NEW.

Live and learn with it for 2 or 3 years, fixing only what is needed and assume you will add damages from novice mistakes

Then decide whether you wish to keep it or sell and buy your affordable dream boat.

If it has good bones it will depreciate very little

Assuming an older boat NEEDS a refit is often a novice owner worst mistake, especially if they view this as a trial boat.
Yes, It seems there is a tendency for a new owner to want to "make it my own".... sometimes these attempts can be a real problem. (guilty as charged!) A good cleanout from stem to stern should follow purchase. Like Pelagic said.. use it... then decide what really needs done!
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Old 29-11-2014, 13:07   #39
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Goodness all this serious mumbo jumbo boats are toys, don't overthink it! You could blow money on new cars, dinners out all kinds of junk, it's all the way you want to swing your budget!
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Old 29-11-2014, 15:51   #40
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Thank you everyone for all the thoughtful replies. This forum is a goldmine for newbies like me.

My current thinking is that, as long as I do not go too old (15 years+), I am really just looking for a well cared for boat that fits my needs. If it is on the older side, just be prepared for the higher maintenance but not be concerned about needing a complete refit. If on the younger, expect less maintenance but more depreciation loss. In other words, focus on the quality and survey more than the age.

We are really leaning towards Power Cats. It seems like a good boat for a novice and has the room we need to bring the family along when desired. It is a shame they are so scarce. We like the Lagoon 43 and The Leopard 47 but can find none that are local to us (Philly). I do not mind traveling to see a boat but I am a tax accountant and it is difficult to get away for more than a day or to between now and April 15. Nothing is ever easy!

On the mono hull side, we like the layouts of the Carver 46 and 53 Voyagers, and there seem to be a number of them around. My wife is adamant about having at least 3 staterooms and that seems hard to find in most mono hulls under 55 feet. I like the idea of a lower helm.

Any thoughts on these boats would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 29-11-2014, 15:56   #41
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

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Goodness all this serious mumbo jumbo boats are toys, don't overthink it! You could blow money on new cars, dinners out all kinds of junk, it's all the way you want to swing your budget!
Ain't that the truth! In fact, that is how we plan to justify paying for this boat, by re-arranging all the other money we blow on sports cars, family vacations and eating out every other night.
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Old 29-11-2014, 17:12   #42
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a sailboat at present and for me it will be my home. But I'm not buying a boat to muck around in/on. I see it as a lifestyle, that includes all of the aspects of maintenance as well as the thrill and pleasure of being on a boat. If it's just a plaything buy new or you will be weighed down by the drudgery of maintenance.....

Just a thought
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Old 30-11-2014, 09:37   #43
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
If an older powerboat has good bones and mechanical systems, then they usually come with lots of rebuilt spares, pumps and electrics and older but decent electronics

Then the refit aspect is really boiling down to cosmetics and soft furnishings that are looking a bit tired and dated.

I think this is where many novices make the mistake of trying to make their old boat look like NEW.

Live and learn with it for 2 or 3 years, fixing only what is needed and assume you will add damages from novice mistakes

Then decide whether you wish to keep it or sell and buy your affordable dream boat.

If it has good bones it will depreciate very little

Assuming an older boat NEEDS a refit is often a novice owner worst mistake, especially if they view this as a trial boat.
All true, good advice. We used to have bristol boats (18 of them), bought used except for the brand new Tartan 30 we sailed to Cabo up to Mulege and back in 1980 with our 5 year old son aboard (new boat lovely, no hot water, no pressure water, sun showers and no refrigeration either and you know what the availability of prepackaged foods was back then? Top Ramen and Macaroni! Or icky canned stuff.) We lived on whatever my husband snorkeled for and an occasional troll line) We have learned it's about getting there and enjoying the run, a boat that is meticulously maintained cosmetically is very lovely to have but does not mean it's going to run or travel better. We are old now and over that, a few deck cosmetics, maybe later, redo all the teak, no, let it go natural, stuff like that. On a fixed budget. You can go and you don't have to impress the neighbors just go. But make sure your rig is in good condition and your engine is reliable. Captain can fix damn near anything and does on a regular basis. This is a completely different approach than looking at half million dollar yachts with so many systems you are throwing dollars out the ports to get experts in to fix stuff that breaks on the way. After living on lovely boats I very much prefer this lovely old boat we just bought, it's a 77 and we owe nothing on it, property taxes are nil, sales tax was low.
Insurance is cheap. Only reason we carry that is for liability and to get into yacht clubs and docks along the way. We are both good cooks but we only use our bbq and 3 burner now, I have 3 pots on board, know how to turn out a great meal without a great deal of mess or fuss. I'd rather open a cupboard and see exactly what I want than have to dig through a bunch of seldom used pots, like someone lately mentioned an asparagus pot! Really? I used to think I needed a spaghetti pot then a friend said no just break the spaghetti in two. Duh. Simple pictures at sea are best as far as I am concerned. We have a shop vac onboard and a Honda generator. Bought a great little propane water heater through a camping supply store that hangs on the wall of one head and puts out all the hot water we need (under $300 and some are even cheaper). No plants, no pets, no flatscreen. A couple of lap tops and a small DVD player for when we need a movie. Not flashy and not a target for thieves cause of our low key looks. Best part is we can afford to keep our house to come back to because we didn't blow it all on the boat. So it's our favorite "toy" and we could easily slip right back into cruising mode at any time cause we keep it stocked, kind of a bomb shelter in a way! I think we finally go it right, 19 boats later! So much storage, so much access to all parts of the solid fiberglass hull to run repair or check on systems easily through cupboards and cabinets and underseat storage. We will never fill it up! Just the basics. So practical for these old do it yourselfers.
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Old 30-11-2014, 10:49   #44
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

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...Assuming an older boat NEEDS a refit is often a novice owner worst mistake...
Bull. You're just making this up.

Novices have very little knowledge regarding refits (and boats in general). And few have any idea how to proceed or how much to budget for such a purpose, let alone just what is involved in a refit.
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:35   #45
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Re: Help - how old of a boat should we buy?

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Try Marine Survey 101 for tips on how to inspect a boat.
Thank you for the link. It was very helpful.
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