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Old 22-05-2009, 10:33   #151
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Just because your neighbors the Joneses get rich doesn't mean you get poor. You just *feel* poor when they're getting new stuff you don't have.
Besides a Cadillac Escalade SUV, and a big new pickup truck, my next door neighbor owns a nearly new Bentley convertible and a new Audi R8 (besides a lot of commercial property, a great grocery store and construction company). I'm not jealous, they work nearly all the time.

I work a couple days a week, drive a 9 year old Chrysler 300M and an old Geo, but I get to sail a lot. We just made different choices.

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Old 22-05-2009, 10:46   #152
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Good point. But by most standards of measurement, Japan is still a long way behind the USA. While we look to China as an emerging power, truth is they have a massive distance to make up before they can even challenge Japan.
CIA GDP Rankings (by Country not Per Person):

European Union = $ 14,820,000,000,000
USA = $ 14,290,000,000,000
China = $ 7,800,000,000,000
Japan = $ 4,348,000,000,000
India = $ 3,267,000,000,000
Germany = $ 2,863,000,000,000

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2001rank.html

See also the World Bank Quick Reference:
Data - Quick Reference Tables

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Old 26-05-2009, 08:25   #153
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Well, that is both interesting and thought provoking. Thanks Gord.

I wonder what the tables are that our newspapers and TV are regularly quoting us then. Albeit that they split the EU up into Countries, it still doesn't make a scrap of sense. If they are not GDP per Capita or GDP by Country then what on earth might they be. Although there are various ways of interpreting statistics, I cannot see how Lichenstien nor the EU can be considered the "richest" countries. While the EU overall may have a large GDP, one wonders where, whether and if natural and other reserves are counted in the plot.

By any measurement standard, however, the USA still seems to come out top of the plot.
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Old 26-05-2009, 08:49   #154
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... Although there are various ways of interpreting statistics, I cannot see how Lichenstien nor the EU can be considered the "richest" countries. While the EU overall may have a large GDP, one wonders where, whether and if natural and other reserves are counted in the plot.
By any measurement standard, however, the USA still seems to come out top of the plot.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) at Purchasing Power Parity (PPP), Per Capita, is generally used to describe the relative prosperity of a country’s population (standard of living); but not necessarily the country’s wealth or power.
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Old 26-05-2009, 10:13   #155
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If there is going to be a depression, it is not showing up by the optimists that have their boats for sale at such high prices they will never sell. Some Boaters are optimistic people and do not believe their boat have lost value. In my opinion the value of boats are sinking very rapidly and owners are in denial.. Good place to be when the depression hits. The South Pacific is the most friendly and you can get food from the sea and land cheap. You just need a good hurricane hole when all hell breaks loose with the weather. Forget central American and northern South America. Too many bad guys to murder, pillage and rape.
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Old 26-05-2009, 10:27   #156
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Panama, west or east. In most central american countries you can go up a river and hand pan an ounce of gold in a few days.

There are some great minds working this thread. Thanks. It distills down to if the sky falls just chill out for a few years and wait for the cycle to change. No better place than a boat in an area where you can provide some or most of your needs.
Forget Panama, I live here. If a global depression happens you would not want to be here.. Many many bad guys here... Trust me this is not the place.. Maybe San Blas but just maybe..
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Old 26-05-2009, 10:36   #157
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According to the CIA World Factbook:

Country GDP Rankings
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2001rank.html

Country GDP per Capita Rankings:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2004rank.html
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Old 26-05-2009, 10:56   #158
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Now, thank you Gord, I am totally confused.

I note that the USA does not even appear in one list, while the UK does not appear in the other.

I also wonder what Lichenstien actually produces to put it so high in the tables?
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Old 26-05-2009, 11:39   #159
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Now, thank you Gord, I am totally confused.
I note that the USA does not even appear in one list, while the UK does not appear in the other...
Both the USA & UK appear in both tables.
USA listed #3* and UK #8, by GDP.
USA listed #8 & UK #38, by GDP per Capita

* Behind the entire world, and the EU.
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Old 26-05-2009, 12:14   #160
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I also wonder what Lichenstien actually produces to put it so high in the tables?
Money.

Other peoples
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Old 26-05-2009, 12:39   #161
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Panamajames, I am not sure that any place will be particularly safe in the event of a global economic collapse. Indeed, there is good reason to believe that those from the developed countries will find the loss of their comfortable homes, their well-paying jobs and considerable benefits even more difficult to cope with than the effects upon the inhabitants of Central and northern South America, who in relative terms, are already used to a hand to mouth existence.

Are there, as you say, 'all sorts of bad guys' in Central and northern South America? Yes. On the other hand, there are also 'all sorts of bad guys' in North America and Europe, etc. - many of whom may be prepared to turn to crime if their expectations are not met and they see no other way out. This is particularly so if there is also a collapse of the extensive social secuirty net to which they have become accustomed (or at least, had hoped to be able to depend upon in the case of the proverbial 'rainy day'). On the other hand, for the many already living in poverty in these underdeveloped areas, there is a very good chance that even the devestation of the global economy will have only a minor effect on their lifestyle and the choices they ultimately make.

Put another way, I do not believe that North Americans or Europeans (or the inhabitants of other places with relatively low crime rates) are somehow fundamentally better people than those from the countries you denigrate; rather, I suspect that the better circumstances and the greater opportunities they face have kept many of those who may be inclined towards committing crimes, from actually doing so. Make life difficult for those who are used to having it easy, however, and all bets are off.

Brad
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Old 26-05-2009, 21:37   #162
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Besides a Cadillac Escalade SUV, and a big new pickup truck, my next door neighbor owns a nearly new Bentley convertible and a new Audi R8 (besides a lot of commercial property, a great grocery store and construction company). I'm not jealous, they work nearly all the time.

I work a couple days a week, drive a 9 year old Chrysler 300M and an old Geo, but I get to sail a lot. We just made different choices.

Steve B.
Relative poverty can have a real effect, in that property prices and rents go up labour goes up food goes up and greater bureaucracy makes it more difficult to do things yourself. Eg in a poor country, the family can dig the grave and make the coffin and simply bury the corpse. In a richer country, there are all sorts of regulations that make it unable to get away with less than a couple of thousand expenditure.
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Old 27-05-2009, 01:54   #163
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Both the USA & UK appear in both tables.
USA listed #3* and UK #8, by GDP.
USA listed #8 & UK #38, by GDP per Capita

* Behind the entire world, and the EU.
Sorry Gord. It looks like it didn't load properly for me the first time I looked. Every other entry was blank (bit like me).

It would be interesting to see the statistics on reserves and such things, and GDP with the financial services elements removed. A sort of resiliance table would be good too. When you look at the facts and figures, and think about anecdotal stuff such as resiliance, Canada comes out as a good destination. Low population for size, high food production levels, stable civilization and so on.

On the whole, I tend to agree with the "keep away from the big cities" philosophy, and Southern Star makes some good points. The "change" in the developed countries would be far greater, than that in countries where standard of living was lower but more sustainable at the lower levels.

Hence "...as I am already poor, I can adjust easier to poverty"
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Old 27-05-2009, 02:01   #164
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Money.

Other peoples
Bit like your place then.

So Lichenstien is out in the event of economic collapse then. I bet their Marinas are pricey.
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Old 29-05-2009, 03:31   #165
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Having lived in Different parts of the US (both country & city, North & South). Italy & the UK. Having friends living in and done visits beyond the rubber necking tourist to Germany, Austria, France, Ireland, Nederland. This much I can say for sure.

In the US it is better to live in the country and live simply, within reasonable distance of medical care if possible.

Italy, in the North live in the country but marinas can be very hard to get a long term berth unless you sub lease one from some one or are willing to pay the graft needed to move up a list or the agent fees that do the same. Southern Italy health care is a bit of a hit or miss though the quality of food at very cheap rates could be seen to make up for it. Government red tape is not a major problem as long as you try to speak Italian or are fluent in it you can get most things done. Though the farther North you go the more expensive things get.

France is pretty the same as Italy with the exception of much better health care throughout. Again paperwork needs being done but give a good college try to learn the French and you would be surprised at what you can get done.

Germany is very nice but very paperwork heavy if you are planning on staying there for any period of time. Or move enough within the system that no one really takes notice of you (NOT a wise option).

Nederland is pretty laid back once you get by the paperwork and as long as you have the right type of visa or passport (EU passports rocks).

The UK is very expensive if you do not have a source of income and very stringent on the paperwork for foriegn nationals (they are the most sued in the EU courts for not up holding their responsibilities to EU nationals and their dependents, loose the most often as well).

So it really depends on what you are looking for.

An examples:

Southern Italy, France, Sicily a bundle of 20 Artichokes will cost you, off the corner market, around €5 (this includes stems which can be used to make liquor [which a bottle of 90% pure spirit will cost €19 for 750ml]). Northern Italy, France, and major cities in each you will pay between €1.2 to €3 per head with very little stem left on. The UK you will pay £2 to £4 each and they are small and would be classed as CAT 2 in the country of origin but are classed CAT 1 in the UK.

Locally produced and marketed cheese will cost you between €.80 to €1.30 per 100 grams of good quality cheese in all the above except the UK where you start at around £1.10 and it can go to £3.00 per that same 100 grams of LOCALLY produced cheese. GDP is a very poor indicator of real purchasing power or real standard of living as the average Brit' works 50+ hours per week and the average French or Italian hit in at around 36 to 42 for the same week. Food quality here in the UK suffers from to much government control. Yes, we are lking at moving back to main Europe in the coming years. Probably France (Even with the high tax rate), you have to choose what problems are acceptable. Though depending on what happens in the US with these new tax laws, we might have problems traveling to the US as they are starting to look like jackbooters from this side of the pond (I am a US Vet by the way).

So pick what problems you find acceptable and how you want to live your life. Southern France and Italy are great if you don't mind the people being a bit stand offish until they get to know you and and having to learn a very different style of living and doing things from the US or the UK.

Just my experience in having lived in these places and my two cents worth.

Michael.
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