Going Uninsured !?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Interesting. I spoke with the Pantaneous UK boss a couple of years ago at a boat show as they were offering free coffee.

They would insure Viv and I to complete the ARC and return to UK, so a 1 year Atlantic circuit. He would split the insurance, 6 months EU cover and 6 months US cover including the crossings in between although he did point out the US part was much more expensive. Quote came in at $2300 for the year for £50k of notional yacht value.

Couple of interesting points. The boat needed to be worth a minimum of £50k for them to approach the underwriters, not a problem when you take into account personal items and stuff needed for a major trip. Husband and wife crew also no problem and they were pleased to see we planned on a 31 foot yacht which would be manageable. I think they had problems with small crews and large yachts in the past.

Pantaneous UK were also quite strict when we took out our current insurance with them. Recent survey and my comments on any recommendations needed was required. A sailing CV of qualifications and experience, photos of dinghy and outboard plus serial numbers. I don't have a problem with this, at least they are trying to assess the risk.

Pete

Below is the content of the email exchange with Pantaenius.

Dear Mr. xxxx:

Thank you for considering Pantaenius America for your yacht insurance needs. Unfortunately, due to underwriting guidelines, we must decline your request for coverage.

Once again, we thank you for considering Pantaenius America for your insurance needs and please do not hesitate to contact our office with any questions or concerns.

Best regards,

Jo Ann McHugh
Pantaenius America, Ltd.
500 Mamaroneck Avenue
Harrison, NY 10528
Phone:914.381.2066
Fax: 914.381.2052
Mail:jmchugh@pantaenius.com
American Yacht Insurance


to Joanne
Greetings:

Thanks for the response, but you advise what underwriting guidelines need to be met?

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail…


McHugh, Joanne (Pantaenius) ✆
6/8/11

to me
Our underwriting guidelines have changed and the value you are requesting is too low for Florida. Sorry.

to Joanne
Fair enough. What ARE your minimums?


McHugh, Joanne (Pantaenius) ✆
6/8/11

to me
Our minimums have recently changed to $1 Million and over.

I left Joanne's name and contact visible in case anyone requires insurance and meets their minimums. Hope this is OK with mods; if not I apologize and ask you just edit.

[sailorboy1]

I wonder how many people with $1 million boats spend a lot of time shopping for insurance?

[hellosailor]

Newt-
"Well, what if we formed a company and each put in 1 grand. It would still be our money, but if it reached 1000 members then we would have 1 million for liability. "
Congratulations, you've just reinvented the "mutual assurance" corporation, which in fact is nothing new. Some major insurers today still are "owned" by the policy holders rather than being plain commercial for-profit entities. You'd be subject to insurance regulations and you'd find the other existing mutual companies probably already competing on the prices. As I understand it, before you can open for business you have to justify your rate structure, and the odds are there's more to the rates than you an expecting.
AIG got in trouble over that back in the (early 90s?) when they opened up an auto insurance company in the US, with rates 10% below the competition. Followed by increases of 15% at the first renewal. "Ooops" they figured their rates wrong. Ahuh.

You never know, there might be a market for a "world cruisers, solo sailors, and old boat owners mutual assurance company". There certainly are enough companies today that don't mention "Oh, we don't insure boats more than xx years old, xx feet long, or owners without xx years of prior ownership/operations before they come to us" until after you fill in all the paperwork and waste your time.

[Seahunter]

Uninsured, unlicensed, inexperienced, unsurveyed, unkempt = expensive + irresponsible.

[tager]

Insurance is still a scam.

[zeehag]

Uninsured, unlicensed, inexperienced, unsurveyed, unkempt = expensive + irresponsible.

this quote supports the insurance lobby and fascism .. insurance lobby is number one reason for extremely high costs of health care in usa. thankyou for your support.
lack of insurance does not mean derelict, as you seem to tout. au contraire-is a proclamation to freedom from fascist bs.
the quoted sentence is bigotry in its own essence.

[hellosailor]

zeehag, you may think "uninsured" means "free" but to anyone who has suffered a significant loss (boat, car, or other) from some freebird who was simply too broke to carry insurance and too broke to pay for the damages they caused in an accident...being uninsured in the proximity of other people and their property simply means IRRESPONSIBLE unless they've got the assets, and the ethics, to make good any damage they may cause.

I don't have any numbers for boaters, but in some US states 25% of the motorists have no insurance despite insurance laws. And unfortunately, you can't seize their kidneys (that's both kidneys not just one) to pay for the damages when they hit someone else.

Freedom rightfully ends when it threatens the people around you.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

I brought up self insurance because we are in a similar situation as medical malpractice was a few years ago. The insurers just wouldn't cover us because of this and that. So we joined together and formed our own company and was a lot cheaper. Not only that, we insured what we did.
I don't like the idea of sailing off in the blue without insurance, but as mentioned before, most won't cover a solo multiple country navigator.
I think we would fill a need as show up all those business types. In spite of what was said earlier- it can be done.
So how?
Incorporation with minimal start up. We would handle the small losses ourselves, with the big losses insured in block by a large holding company (just like insurance companies do) but like REI used to be, we share the profits by cutting our rates.

Interesting idea, a P&I club for Yachties.....

Shipping companies have been doing it for years, i am sure with a bit of modifying by someone who knows the ins and out's it could be made to work....

Protection and indemnity insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Triton318]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Uninsured, unlicensed, inexperienced, unsurveyed, unkempt = expensive + irresponsible.

What does just uninsured + unlicensed + unsurveyed equal?

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Triton318

What does just uninsured + unlicensed + unsurveyed equal?

A personal attack?

[zeehag]

"zeehag, you may think "uninsured" means "free" but to anyone who has suffered a significant loss (boat, car, or other) from some freebird who was simply too broke to carry insurance and too broke to pay for the damages they caused in an accident...being uninsured in the proximity of other people and their property simply means IRRESPONSIBLE unless they've got the assets, and the ethics, to make good any damage they may cause."

uninsured is not free--is away from the DICTATES of a LOBBY that DICTATES to the coolade drinkers that those not suffering the payment of their fees and undergoing the payments for nothing that they force is something to be idealized--i rhtink not. i am not a fascist. sorry . i donot drink the coolade. i donot sail into others boats nor drag anchor into others nor have the attitude of not knowing how to sail or manage aboat properly. sorry. i m not the bad guy here--if anyone is is those who blindly go as the insurance lobby demands they go.
i also do not blindly and with bigoted attitude preach that all must follow that which i do, labeling those not so doing as derelict and irresponsible.
labelling those who CHOOSE to not use insurance as being irresponsible is more irresponsible than those who do not choose to follow the sheep. is plainly, bigotry.

i AM uninsured, unsurveyed--yes unsurveyed--i am smarter than most all surveyors except for kjels christian and associates and FEW others...what has been wrong with my boat was not seen by any surveyor who looked art her--i found that stuff. sounds like words made by non sailors and non cruisers. omg--i am unlicensed also!!!!! omg omg omg!!!!
i also do not have a license. so, i guess i am victim of the BIGOT.....

yes, delmarrey, you are correct--is a personal attack.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Interesting idea, a P&I club for Yachties.....

Shipping companies have been doing it for years, i am sure with a bit of modifying by someone who knows the ins and out's it could be made to work....

Protection and indemnity insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hey!if you charged slightly higher premiums,and got some of the more prolific posters in as negotiators,you would soon be in a position to open up the gulf of aden,after all the pirates are only bussinessmen these days!!

[capstan]

If you carry a million dollars of insurance, you will be sued for a million dollars.
I've sailed for over 30 years without insurance, and not a single mishap. Never even banged a dock. I know I don't have insurance, and it makes me a safer boater.
I've known a few acquaintances who took chances I wouldn't take. When I suggested it might not be a good idea, they said "That's what insurance is for"!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by SvenG

We just got a quote from one of the more reputable insurers (often recommended here). To say that it was disappointing is an understatement.

The insurer would only cover less than one quarter or what an equally reputable surveyor said was the replacement value. That coverage would also be less than one half of what we will have sunk into the boat after the refit.

With that coverage the annual premium would still be ~4% of what was covered.

At this point we're thinking that the insurance is not worth bothering with. The full value of the coverage offered would be better placed by us in a savings account. Liability insurance is still a necessity in many places but that's about it.

I'm sure the actuarial tables explain the quote but that doesn't help us think the insurance is worth bothering with. So now we're wondering how many others go with no insurance or only liability ?

Thanks,



-Sven

It creeps me out that 27% of the posters here have *no* insurance. If we collide and it's your fault, can you pay? If I'm on your boat and your rig comes down and I am hurt, I guess I'm on my own ...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

zeehag, you may think "uninsured" means "free" but to anyone who has suffered a significant loss (boat, car, or other) from some freebird who was simply too broke to carry insurance and too broke to pay for the damages they caused in an accident...being uninsured in the proximity of other people and their property simply means IRRESPONSIBLE unless they've got the assets, and the ethics, to make good any damage they may cause.

I don't have any numbers for boaters, but in some US states 25% of the motorists have no insurance despite insurance laws. And unfortunately, you can't seize their kidneys (that's both kidneys not just one) to pay for the damages when they hit someone else.

Freedom rightfully ends when it threatens the people around you.

In Florida if your car is uninsured and you're in a significant accident, you're in a whole lotta trouble. I do not think it is fascism to demonstrate financial responsibility. Other people can be hurt by/on your boat. I wouldn't leave dock without it, but maybe if you have nothing to leave and filing for bankruptcy doesn't bother you, It could work for a specific individual. But I wouldn't want to sail on that boat. And no, I'm not looking to sue someone if I sprain my ankle on their boat because I didn't pay attention to the fact that we were about to tack.