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Old 21-03-2018, 11:57   #1
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Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

I recently enjoyed reading through the entire rather long 'Shoestring Sailors' thread which seems to have fizzled out lately. I live a rather frugal lifestyle and enjoy exchanging ideas with other like minded people so I'd like to start a new frugal cruising thread. There was a lot of discussion in the previous thread regarding a practical minimum monthly budget. Perhaps we can set that minimum dollar amount aside and simply exchange ideas about how cruisers can reduce their costs of living.

IDEAS FROM THE PREVIOUS THREAD

1. Choose the smallest boat that is adequate for your needs. As boat size gets bigger repair, maintenance and marina fees all scale up too.

2. Choose a cruising region of the world with a lower cost of living. Highly developed 'first world' countries are often much more expensive than less developed countries, especially when it comes to marina fees. Some coastlines are more suitable for anchoring out than others which is much less expensive than mooring in a marina.

3. Learn how to do as much boat work yourself as possible. New boat parts are invariably very expensive so first search for low cost used or even free parts online, from junk yards or even dumpsters. In some less developed countries where labor costs are low and new parts are scarce it may be possible to find a machine shop that can either repair or even manufacture a new metal part from scratch at a reasonable cost.

4. Mostly cook from scratch on board. Eating out can be very expensive although in some less developed countries eating out is much more reasonable.

5. Always keep an eye out for bargains on cheap used or even free materials. You can save a lot of money by buying replacement parts before you have an immediate pressing need for them by snatching them up when you see a good deal. Quite a lot of reusable boat parts (and even food) end up in the dump simply because the previous owner considers it too inconvenient to pass the materials onward to someone who could use them. Sometimes needs can be met without cash by bartering.

6. Make friends with both expat semi-permanent residents and locals when you anchor in a new region. They can often provide highly valuable information about where to find the best deals on repairs, materials and food which may be located off the beaten track.

7. Sail as much as possible in order to minimize diesel fuel costs.

8. Minimize the amount of technology and fancy gear that you have on board. Besides the initial cost it also increases maintenance costs (i.e. water maker.) Fancy gear IS very nice to have though so it's a trade-off each person has to make.

NEW IDEAS FOR DISCUSSION

What might cruisers be able to offer to locals in a win-win barter situation? Transportation between islands? Medical care if you are skilled? Other ideas? What might cruisers be able to get in return in a barter? Fresh locally grown food? Repair work?

Lower cost cooking - Gas might not be a huge expense but perhaps some cost and the inconvience of getting refills could be avoided by using other methods. Have people found solar cookers to be worthwhile? As the cost of solar panels continues to fall perhaps electric cooking is becoming more practical. My crock pot only draws 250watts on high. With 400watts of solar panels it should be possible to run the crock pot for 4 hours in the middle of a bright sunny day without running down your battery bank.

Would a hybrid diesel/solar electric prop drive be more frugal than just diesel? Or would it just add more complication and expense? How many solar panels would it take to directly power a solar motor on a sunny day without draining the battery bank? Would there be enough rack space to feasibly do this on an average cruising sailboat or no?

Marina fees seem like they can easily garner a big percentage of a frugal cruising budget. Might there be ways to negotiate a win-win arrangement with a marina in order to avoid paying marina fees? Perhaps doing some work for them in exchange for a slip?

Here's a crazy alternative to having an electric refrigerator. How about just having a very well insulated ice box which you supply with ice from a small portable ice machine that you power from your solar panels? Amazon has one for sale for just $115 that is listed as drawing only 120 watts of power on 115v AC. The advantage of this is that you wouldn't have to keep it running all the time like a fridge and thus you wouldn't need such a big battery bank. And you'd have loads of ice for beverages! Maybe a crazy idea...just throwing it out there.
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Old 21-03-2018, 12:41   #2
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Howdy Steve. Welcome Aboard CF!

I see you are new here, and it is admirable you are starting a thread.
And while I don't want to discourage you, I do think spending some more time reading previous threads (discussion topics) may have many answers for you (and others).

You have proposed what you see as "new" ideas to discuss. Those topics have also been previously discussed on CF, sometimes at exhausting length (especially the topic of Electric Engines on Sailboats).

I think much more detailed answers will be found within other threads here on CF. I will leave it to you to find those answers, and read some of the many detailed responses on those other topics (Barter, Ice, Electric Engines, etc.). In some cases, the topics have produced many very detailed discussions.

Electric Engines
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...rt=&gsc.page=1

Barter
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...=&gsc.q=Barter

Ice and Low Cost Refrigeration (and electric power needs)
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...ort=&gsc.q=ice

Solar Ovens and Solar Cooking
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...solar%20cooker

Again, I am writing this not to discourage you, but rather to refer you to some very good content that is already here on CF, stuff that some of the members will likely never repeat because they put so much into it before. Searching the CF Archives should provide many hours of reading on those topics. Good luck!
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You wrote you have spent some time reading one of the frugal sailing threads. That is good. But, there is more than one.

Since you mentioned that other thread, I think it is a good idea to post a link to it, as others visiting this thread may not be aware of it yet. So, I will post what I generally share with others to help them with "frugal cruising" ideas.
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You want ideas on how to cruise on a very tight/low/small budget?
You want ideas on how to save money while cruising?


Cruisers Forum is loaded with ideas on frugal sailing and cruising on a small budget.

The following link is to a long running and popular discussion thread that was started in 2010. It has 207 pages and 3094 posted comments. It was closed (it got so large) and a second part was started. It is a closed thread (no longer possible to add more comments) but it is still accessible and readable.

Part 1
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nth-40051.html

Part 2
This is the second thread, or an extension on the same topic of frugal sailing.
It has 1,356 posted comments on 90+ pages of comments on the topic.
It is still an open thread to which you can contribute more ideas.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-ii-79067.html
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Old 21-03-2018, 13:03   #3
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Hi Steve, I always welcome these kinds of discussions. Although it’s hard to know where to bite in since you’ve covered so much with your first post.

Here’s one foundational idea which I find helps me: Go slow. Don’t be in a rush.

Whenever I’ve traveled fast, with tight deadlines and definite destinations, I tend to wrack up bigger costs. Sometimes this is unavoidable, but I find that spending long periods of time one area or region really helps keep costs under control.

Other key ideas I’ve come to, some of which you touched on already, are:
  • Go with the smallest boat you can live with (note: that doesn’t just mean a small boat).
  • Use systems that are either highly reliable, or can be maintained/repaired by you.
  • Avoid marinas.
  • Stay away from popular/touristy areas.
  • Stay away from large urban areas.
  • Enjoy where you are. There is beauty and wonder everywhere. You don’t have to chase around with a ‘bucket list’ to find them.
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Old 21-03-2018, 13:20   #4
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

NEW IDEAS FOR DISCUSSION

Lower cost cooking - Gas might not be a huge expense but perhaps some cost and the inconvience of getting refills could be avoided by using other methods. Have people found solar cookers to be worthwhile? As the cost of solar panels continues to fall perhaps electric cooking is becoming more practical. My crock pot only draws 250watts on high.

At anchor there will be waves/wakes that will rock the boat, some quite excitingly. Odds are a slow cooker will end up on the deck at some time, let alone underway. You have roughly 5 hours of good solar a day. You need that for topping up the batteries too, when on the hook. Can it be done, yes. But where do you store the slow cooker when not in use. One rule of thumb is a 250 watt solar panel will only put out 200 ish watts with MPPT. (if you're lucky) With shading, clouds and rain it drops more.

I get about 4 months on a 20 pound bottle of propane (2 meals a day) and keep a spare aboard. When I run out I swap the spare and then have a month or two to find an easy propane location. BTW I have dropped a pan or two off the stove top too, but only twice in 10 years.



Would a hybrid diesel/solar electric prop drive be more frugal than just diesel? Or would it just add more complication and expense? Generally Diesel is the only way to go, fewer things to go wrong and generally very reliable.

For electric only you would need roughly 1000 watts per hp, due to power correction factor and loss at solar. So if you find space for 2-3kw of panels you could use an electric motor, but now you need a big boat for the panels.



Marina fees seem like they can easily garner a big percentage of a frugal cruising budget. Might there be ways to negotiate a win-win arrangement with a marina in order to avoid paying marina fees? Perhaps doing some work for them in exchange for a slip?

Some folks due work in some marines for a reduced rate. But most marinas, would care less. Demand for slips are generally high, so no real savings there. Though if you hunt around you generally will find cheaper marina's here or there.

Cheaper to be on the hook and just take a guest slip twice a month for food runs, trash, water, long shower and an a ocational jug of propane.

Here's a crazy alternative to having an electric refrigerator. How about just having a very well insulated ice box which you supply with ice from a small portable ice machine that you power from your solar panels? Amazon has one for sale for just $115 that is listed as drawing only 120 watts of power on 115v AC

A small dorm fridge will use less power then an ice maker. A good one is the Edgestar 3.1CF with separate freezer compartment. It's running watts is 70 watts or close to 1/2 the power of a ice maker (or a typical dorm fridge). The edge star uses less then 2 ah per hour, less at night. That's with a freezer compartment cold enough to keep ice cream. Can't do that with a ice maker. While it's a 3.1 cf, it holds as much food as my old 3.5 cf fridge that used 2.5ah per hour (more in +95 F temps.

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Old 21-03-2018, 13:55   #5
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

I made my own electric cooker runs directly off 12 volts and pulls only 5 amps. It can cook in 40 minutes, but the amount of food is small. The reason it can boil 2 cups of water with such little power is it is heavily insulated.

It is very feasible to run electric cooking. Also possible to use electric propulsion. I have done this, and achieved 3 knots of speed in direct sunlight, but this required a lot of solar panels.

I also have a parabolic mirror about 6 square ft. I am rigging now to automatically track the sun at anchor. It cooks the same speed like a stove. Besides cooking, I intend also to use it to produce cooking gas from poop solving 2 problems at once.
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Old 21-03-2018, 14:04   #6
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Re low cost cooking: research retained heat cooking. One such product is Wonder Bag. Works great doesnt heat up the boat either.
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Old 21-03-2018, 14:33   #7
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

The GoSun solar cooker is reported to work exceedingly well, but is exceedingly expensive. Some of the YouTube sailors have managed to get free or discounted units for the advertising. However, the double-walled glass tubes needed to make your own can be found on eBay and the like for a fraction of the cost.
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Old 21-03-2018, 15:01   #8
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Solar cookers are possibly viable in southern/sunny areas. Not so where I cruise. Electric is probably ok for heating things, crock-style, but if cooking is more than just a utilitarian task, I can’t see this being very good.

I find that one of the joys of going slow is taking the time to prepare and enjoy a meal. A small stove with an oven is a wonderful way to support long-term remote cruising.

None of the cooking fuels are expensive, and most stoves/ovens are very efficient. We cook all the time on board, including baking bread, cookies, other meals. A 20# propane tank lasts us around four months. Diesel or kero would be ever better. I’d love a wood stove cooker, but can’t see that work in my smallish boat.
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Old 21-03-2018, 15:14   #9
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Thanks for all the responses! Great to know there are some kindred frugal minded people out there! I appreciate the links from Steadman_Uhlich, I guess I should have dug a little deeper before posting my 'new' ideas. I'll definitely read a bunch of those threads.

SailorChic34, what is the model number of your Edgestar fridge? It looks like a nice option. Someone gave me a similar sized Haier fridge several years ago but it was not very energy efficient. I like the idea of having a separate freezer compartment too instead of just a tiny freezer compartment in the upper corner of a mini fridge.

I feel like boat_alexandra is really on my wave length when it comes to creative frugality and pushing the limits. I actually had a similar idea to make a super efficient mini-crockpot but I didn't get the project finished properly yet with insulation. I snagged an electric potpourri pot at the thrift store for a couple bucks to use as the main heating element. It's rated at 24watts @ 120volts so it would be about the same amperage as yours. I configured an Arduino with a relay and temp probe and was successful using either the crockpot or the potpourri pot to do low temperature (and lower power consumpotion) sous vide cooking! I can see how 12v would be preferable though so you wouldn't need to use an inverter to run it. Thick insulation does seem like it would be important to make something like this work well. Did you come up with a good heatproof insulating material for molding around your electric hot pot? You also mentioned generating cooking gas from poop, are you going to try making a small scale methane digester? Would adding fish guts and vegetable scraps to the digester help generate methane too?

Toddster8, I've seen some of the reviews for the GoSun and while they are generally positive it does seem rather overpriced. Looking around on Amazon and Ebay it appears that there are some lower cost competitors popping up now. I like the idea of the large 4" diameter size rather than the longer skinny tube. Seems like the larger diameter would be a bit easier to use for cooking and easier to clean since you could fit your whole hand down inside to scrub it.
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Old 21-03-2018, 19:41   #10
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Edgestar 3.1 is available here https://www.compactappliance.com/crf...er/CRF321.html

and Amazon. Compact appliance had my fridge to me in less then 48 hours from order placement on line.

Note that many fridges look like the edgestar, but few are as energy efficient. I've verified 70 watts running, it runs 20 minutes every 1.3 hours, varies on cabin temp) It does require a 1000 watt PSW inverter to run it well, but the combo sip's power, except when cabin temps are above 95 F. Of course suns out more so more solar then too, so not the end of the world.

I can store enough food in freezer for 2.5 weeks (for one, wrapped in alum foil, etc) and ice cream does stay frozen.

I had a old magic chef 3.5 that pulled 150 watts running but only ran a total of 10 minutes an hour for a 2.5 ah load. The edgestar is well below that, runs less and has a real freezer.
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Old 22-03-2018, 02:27   #11
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns.

If you take the "average" cruiser (if you can really say there is one), it's pretty easy for them to cut a dollar out of their budget without any significant effort, loss of comfort or other impact to their life.

The next dollar cut takes a little more and so on.

Some of the really low end budgets, people are putting far more effort into saving that last dollar than it would take to just earn another dollar.
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Old 22-03-2018, 02:52   #12
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

I thought most long term cruisers did most of that first list most of the time anyway, the ones I hang out with tend towards that style.

Though maybe not on tiny boats.

Pressure cookers help lots with cooking if you don't want to rely on solar - cooker/gas has got to be cheaper than another big chunk of solar ? Plus canning whats left over for another day.

Quote:
8. Minimize the amount of technology
As far as nav & boat monitoring kit goes that's not actually such a big deal anymore - with raspberry pi/openplotter/signlk you can put together a system capable of much more than a high setup for very little cash or power.

One of the bigger savings IMHO can be made inside our heads - theres's such a strong western idea that how much fun you have is proportional to how much you spend, which just doesn't stand up to scrutiny - local bus into the mountains, eating/shopping with the locals etc tends to be much more memorable than some prepackaged experience for the tourists and half the price
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Old 22-03-2018, 03:14   #13
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

No better idea than going slooowwww... you can find the best deals, find the cheapest places on shore, find the best weather windows to minimize or eliminate motoring, not care about calms, not taxing your gear unnecessarily, not needing to worry about electronic/communication deadlines.... I lived out of my VW bus around the med for the better part of a year once. I'd just park that old boy by some deserted bay (there are plenty if you go slow enough to find them, even around these parts) and six weeks would drift by in a blink with an average daily average life cost of about 10 bucks (mostly cigarettes and alcohol)... stay till you get bored, then ease on down the road (but slowly, driving fast eats gas! Sailing fast eats sails...) Ain't no different!
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Old 22-03-2018, 03:40   #14
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns.

If you take the "average" cruiser (if you can really say there is one), it's pretty easy for them to cut a dollar out of their budget without any significant effort, loss of comfort or other impact to their life.

The next dollar cut takes a little more and so on.

Some of the really low end budgets, people are putting far more effort into saving that last dollar than it would take to just earn another dollar.
This is very true. It can be really hard work to be frugal, and difficult to know when setting up your boat initially where you yourself will excel at frugality and where you should splurge. Example: I put a lot of effort into an icebox on my first boat. I probably had ice in it two times; it was just too much work for the small benefit derived. On passages we eat canned and prepared food, and lasting vegetables, like onions, potatoes, garlic, etc. In port, we find stores or markets and hit them up frequently (daily is a luxury!). So on my current boat I have no icebox, but have the option of putting ice into a water cooler and having cold water--the most delicious treat on a hot tropical day. If I want to save the $2.50 for a bag of ice, I do without it.
Also (unrelated), when fitting out a minimalist boat, cheapness is a false economy. Spend the money on good kit--rigging, sails, deck hardware, etc. Though I shopped around for good deals, I bought the best I could afford of the things I do have, and for the most part have had years of trouble-free cruising out of them. I say "for the most part", because there will always be things to tweak, adjust, and improve, however careful you are in the original purchase and install. I find more than anything that the longer I cruised, the more my systems simplified as I ditched superfluous complications--ones I'd spent good money on during construction. Sadly, that's an experience that only comes with time, and one that's very personal. My wants, desires, needs and experiences can't translate 1:1 to anyone else.
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Old 22-03-2018, 09:54   #15
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Re: Frugal Cruising Idea Exchange

As someone who has lived and sailed for a long time on a $500 budget, the folks at the lower social-economic segment, streaching the dollar works far better then working more. It's hard to work from the hook, when one moves about.

Examples:
I purchased a good lightly used main sail (it was a mizzen off a big ketch) for $300 rather then buy a new one for $4000. It's still going strong too.

I spent $300 for a new galley stove (RV type) rather then a $1300+ marine stove. Actually works better (cooks faster) then a marine stove.

I spent $4 on an alternate rubber insulation to reduce condensation under the V-berth mattress instead of $140-$300 for a "Marine" system. I used a childrens floor puzzle mat from the dollar store, two for $2 each. That works just as well as the far more expensive types.

I do agree that running and standing rigging and ground tackle MUST be good kit. Mind you I purchased a spool of double braid and made my own eye splices and still saved $$$.

But there are many times where a bit of hunting and creative thinking might save a buck or twenty.

If you have deep pockets then there isn't much incentive to save as there is when all you have in the world is $500.
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