Finance/Repo Advice Needed.

[ohdrinkboy]

best of luck. if you win your court case, i hope the judge awards for the insurance company to pay the attorney's fees.

[hellosailor]

Mo-
"Question: If I continue to make token payments and dodge the repo man can the boat be considered "stolen"? " Read your finance contract, and ask the lawyer to read it and answer the same question. There are all sorts of creative constructions used these days that translate into "It's ours until you have fully complied" and the terms of the finance contract will probably be upheld by a court, no matter how unfair they may seem to be.
Has your lawyer mentioned mentioned filing a claim for "bad faith" against the insurer? That might put them at risk of having to pay you way more than your claim, and if he's so sure your claim is valid, that your policy doesn't allow them to skip out because of the criminal tenant...
It sounds like he's playing nice, and what you want now is not a nice lawyer, but an outright nasty one who'll go for blood. He asked once, nicely. Once is all they are entitled to, unless they are right. He knows that, and they know so, so one or the other is bluffing.
Again, read your insurance policy. Ask your home state insurance department if there are any laws regulating liability and claims when there's a criminal act, because if there are, they are the only things that would overrule your insurance policy. Don't take anyone's word on it--read the contract, read the statute, decide for yourself.

Or were they trying to not pay you because the property was being rented out (commercial use) and your policy was only for your own residential use?

[h20man]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Mo-
"Question: If I continue to make token payments and dodge the repo man can the boat be considered "stolen"? " Read your finance contract, and ask the lawyer to read it and answer the same question. There are all sorts of creative constructions used these days that translate into "It's ours until you have fully complied" and the terms of the finance contract will probably be upheld by a court, no matter how unfair they may seem to be.
Has your lawyer mentioned mentioned filing a claim for "bad faith" against the insurer? That might put them at risk of having to pay you way more than your claim, and if he's so sure your claim is valid, that your policy doesn't allow them to skip out because of the criminal tenant...
It sounds like he's playing nice, and what you want now is not a nice lawyer, but an outright nasty one who'll go for blood. He asked once, nicely. Once is all they are entitled to, unless they are right. He knows that, and they know so, so one or the other is bluffing.
Again, read your insurance policy. Ask your home state insurance department if there are any laws regulating liability and claims when there's a criminal act, because if there are, they are the only things that would overrule your insurance policy. Don't take anyone's word on it--read the contract, read the statute, decide for yourself.

Or were they trying to not pay you because the property was being rented out (commercial use) and your policy was only for your own residential use?

As had been mentioned, your registration shall expire within a year (most loans on boats want USCG documentation, as it makes their life simpler).
You also need insurance for the boat. Condition of loan.

Your 'hiding out plan' will only work as long as you can show documentation.

I know of people making it themselves (on the insurance side) but this is a ploy that is destined for trouble. Generally for the forger.

If you have a good attorney that is working on contingency he MUST GET AGGRESSIVE, and make the insurance company see that their failure to pay out is going to have consequences GREATER then they pay out number. Bad Faith, damages, etc....

Otherwise it is a game of technical chess. They have a poor strategic position, but are waiting for a mistake on your side. They have time. They have your $.

And worst case the legal cost to them is a fraction of what they have to pay. In one sense they are managing money efficiently. If they can delay a payout of $400K by having one of their own on staff legal beagles play with documents and filings... and they delay it for 6 months to a year it makes sense for them financially.

They will only accelerate their behavior when they realize that they will pay a premium to the injured party...


Best of luck.....

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Gemini_Jim

That could throw a small wrench in the works. It would pay off the boat but make rebuilding difficult.


Thank you to all who have offered advice. Two common suggestions made have been:

1) Make small payments until all is resolved and I am able to resume full payments. We have asked the finance company if they will work with this solution on several occasions and been repeatedly told no. No argument so far has budged them.

2) Sell the land and pay the boat off. Could work but vacant lot sales there are VERY slow. There is a very nice double lot across the street that is reasonably price and been on the market for two years. Also, our financial plan relies on the rent income from the property. If we pursue this we will have to seriously revise our retirement. We will have to go back to work which likely means finding a land home.

Question: If I continue to make token payments and dodge the repo man can the boat be considered "stolen"?

I have never gotten the impression that there was any kind of check for loan status while clearing in/out of the countries we have visited. I would think that if the boat docs match my passport that would be enough.

As I sit here today we have filed the lawsuit against the insurance company and are waiting to have a court date set. My attorney seems quite confident that they will continue to jerk us around until just before the court date in hopes that they can wiggle out of paying or get me to take a greatly reduced settlement. He doesn't think they will let it go to court. No idea how long that will take. Also, he has written a second letter to the finance company.

Anyone know of a good job opening for a retired electrician within walking distance of a cheap marina in Central America?

Thanks again everyone for your help.

Mo

If you make "no payment" and face the repoman "face to face" ,they can never ever say that you stole the boat,unless, you did steal it!! If you are facing the repoman and he has paperwork saying that he can repo the boat, he cant get it then unless he out smarts you and steals it from you or you cave in and give it to him..If the repo-man is there to get the boat you can call the law and say that he is trying to take it but you dont want to give it to him and he is "Harassing you", they will most likely inadverently help you get away to fight another day by telling him he needs to find another way to get it...I tried being a repo man when i was younger,it didnt work out because I was to "soft" and all the person had to say was that they needed the car for taking the kids to school or to get food to feed the kids and i would cave in...If a repo man gets a cop to help him repo the boat(may tell the cop you threated him or some such) ,tell the cop it is a civil matter and he has no power or responsability to help the repoman do his job,rather the contrary ..good luck

[Gemini_Jim]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Mo-
"Question: If I continue to make token payments and dodge the repo man can the boat be considered "stolen"? " Read your finance contract, and ask the lawyer to read it and answer the same question. There are all sorts of creative constructions used these days that translate into "It's ours until you have fully complied" and the terms of the finance contract will probably be upheld by a court, no matter how unfair they may seem to be.
Has your lawyer mentioned mentioned filing a claim for "bad faith" against the insurer? That might put them at risk of having to pay you way more than your claim, and if he's so sure your claim is valid, that your policy doesn't allow them to skip out because of the criminal tenant...
It sounds like he's playing nice, and what you want now is not a nice lawyer, but an outright nasty one who'll go for blood. He asked once, nicely. Once is all they are entitled to, unless they are right. He knows that, and they know so, so one or the other is bluffing.
Again, read your insurance policy. Ask your home state insurance department if there are any laws regulating liability and claims when there's a criminal act, because if there are, they are the only things that would overrule your insurance policy. Don't take anyone's word on it--read the contract, read the statute, decide for yourself.

Or were they trying to not pay you because the property was being rented out (commercial use) and your policy was only for your own residential use?

Thank you.

I will go over the contract and see if I can come up with an answer. If I cannot I will ask the attorney ($$ ).

The insurance company says that because the fire was caused by "illegal activity that I allowed to take place" thi I am responsible. Yeah right! I don't seem to remember getting a call from my renter saying "Hey Jim is it OK if I make illegal drugs in my kitchen?". I do (did?) have the property insured as a rental property.

[hellosailor]

Interesting idea. Apparently your insurer knows that you are GOD. Otherwise, you couldn't have "allowed" something to take place unless you knew about it. And since they know that you knew about it, you must be omnipresent and omnipotent and therefore...You are GOD.

I'm sure there's a body of case law that goes into what "allowed" means and I'd bet your state insurance department would be glad to discuss their ideas about that with you.

Or you could just remind the insurer, since they've appointed you GOD, they'd damn well better pay your claim without further bother. I suspect that they'll keep trying to stonewall but I would hope they are dead wrong, and that in the end you'll be able to collect damages against them as well as what's due.

[hellosailor]

Jim, I had a sudden thought that perhaps I was wrong. Here I thought, naively, that your insurer was mistaking you for GOD. But as my friend Homer often says "D'oh!" that's just not right.

Obviously if your insurer thinks you allowed the criminal acts, they also are saying that you must be a conspirator to the crime. They've just gone on record--and probably on some industry-wide insurance data base--as saying that you were part of a criminal conspiracy to grow drugs.

Ask your lawyer to remind them that these kind of accusations might also lead to claims for libel, slander, defamation of character...all sorts of places that he might be able to go while he's filing the counterclaim.

Your insurer has called you a major criminal! Or GOD...I'm not sure which one, it is so hard to tell the players without a scorecard.

Or maybe, they're saying that you're both? So confused....

[robster]

A meth lab in a 4plex and the other renters didn't complain? You could live off the net income of one 4plex and no other assets? You can't make payments on a boat loan but can afford a lawyer?

This sounds bad. Where was your property manager? I would be suing them!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Gemini_Jim

Thank you.

I will go over the contract and see if I can come up with an answer. If I cannot I will ask the attorney ($$ ).

The insurance company says that because the fire was caused by "illegal activity that I allowed to take place" thi I am responsible. Yeah right! I don't seem to remember getting a call from my renter saying "Hey Jim is it OK if I make illegal drugs in my kitchen?". I do (did?) have the property insured as a rental property.

Did you have a property manager?

This is one example of many good reasons to have a good PM.

[valhalla360]

I'm sorry you are in this unfortunate situation. I've come across posts on many forums where people ask about full time travel while in debt and this is a prime example of the problem (sorry for the I told you so but people thinking about heading out they need to read this thread so they don't learn the hard way).

There are legal games you can play but all the garbage about the evil banks doesn't hold up. You signed the paperwork. You had the opportunity to read all the agreements before you signed them. If you didn't want to play with the devil, you shouldn't have signed the paperwork. So lets set aside the evil empire stuff right off the bat. (This is more for some of the other posters than you)

The bank handed over the money with the understanding that you would pay it back with interest. I'd be willing to bet it said nothing about, you will pay it back unless your rental burns down, so you have an obligation to make every reasonable effort to pay it back. The fact that it may cost you some time back in the states working or some equity in the boat is unfortunate but it's where you are at this point.

I would ask the lawyer about collateral damages but my guess is that's going to be a tough sell in court. Most contracts have language that specifically limit liability for such things. So you would have to prove they are intentionally not paying when they know there is absolutely no plausible justification. If they can even remotely suggest you should have known about the drug dealers, you will lose.

Now how to move forward:

Were you legally allowed to leave the country with a boat with a loan? Some loans require notification prior to taking the collateral out of the country. If true, your position is weaker and it could create additional problems.

Next question, how are you paying for living expenses if your income source burnt down? Is there any way you could live on the cheap and make all or at least a significant portion of the payment? When you call the bank and tell them you have no income, the boat is out of the country and your prior source of income burnt down in a drug induced haze, they will assume (and not knowing you, it's a reasonable assumption) that you will never pay them another penny. At that point the only logical answer for them is to try and get the boat. If you can offer them a few hundred a month until this gets sorted out, they may be much more receptive. (The $10/month sounds nice and if they knew you personally it may work but the bank will consider that essentially the same as making no payment.)

Check with the lawyer but there should be no effect on the insurance payout if you sell the land to create some cash flow. Then the insurance does pay out, you get it in cash rather than a rebuild.

If these don't work out, find a cheap secure place to leave the boat get back, get a job (any job) and live on the cheap throwing as much as you can at the bank until the insurance gets settled. This likely avoids the issue of arriving and they immediately take the boat. Again, if you are sending them a few hundred per month, they will likely hold off on any action.

Finally, do you have friends or family who would loan you the money to make the payments. Personally, I would rather give up the boat and live in a tent under a bridge but if you are absolutely certain you will get the insurance payout or be willing to come back and work it off...

If they still refuse, be honest and let them know where the boat is. It sucks but it's the honest thing to do.

[Capt Phil]

vahalla360... one of the more insightful, cogent and intelligent posts I've ever read on CF. Great advice and empathetic to this guys situation, as well! +1, Phil

[jeremiason]

US and Canadian Banks do REPO boats in foreign countries and they do it more than you would think.

I know several Ex-Pats in Mexico, Costa Rica and Panama that make a very good living REPOing American and Canadian boats for banks, especially if the vessels are Documented vessels, which make it easy to remove them from foreign countries.

These REPO men and women even offer other cruisers bounties on boats they are looking for.... and yes cruisers do give up locations all the time.

Not to mention that it is pretty easy for these REPO people to establish what countries you are in and the areas you would normally be. Both through government connections and listening to local VHF and SSB nets.

If you hide out, they will eventually find you and everything you have left will be taken from you until the Bank gets around to giving it back to you...

Your best bet is to either workout a way to return the boat to the loan company or tell them where the vessel is at. Either way, you should get you personal property off the boat as soon as possible or you may have to wait a long time to get it back.

[Capt Phil]

Tom... you are dead right. Over a 26 year period as a delivery skipper on the west coast, I was involved in 4 repossessions, 3 power and one sailboat. Two were from US locations and two were from Mexican waters. The paper work to remove a security asset from Mexico back to the US is quite involved and requires the agency holding the paper on the vessel to have a Mexican agent acting on their behalf which in both cases was the Port Captain where the boats were lying.
In one case, because the vessel was occupied and in the possession of the skipped owner, the Port Captain got the local police involved to evict the folks off the boat. They would not let either of the owners take anything, not even personal effects, off the boat prior to me taking possession, checking out the seaworthyness, fueling up and moving the boat to the naval dock before getting final permission to remove the boat.
I kinda felt sorry for the couple but they had evidently bought the boat with very little down, never made one payment and skipped the country. Sort of surprised they got caught, I think. Someone on Sonrisa Net in the La Paz area ratted them out from what I understand.
I only took the jobs because business was slow and needed the cash but other skippers who I knew in the business back in the 80's and 90's did a lot of that kind of work. I think it could get kinda messy depending on who you were dealing with.
One of the US repo's I was involved with was a large powerboat in a fairly prestegious Yacht Club in southern CA. There was more drama getting into the club than removing the vessel!
Never a dull moment in the delivery business! Phil