EU, VAT and other riddles

[double u]

Dutch registration online
Big difference if owner is EU citizen or not & if registration is in EU or not (norteamericano know-alls mightn know that)
some years ago spanish authorities checked VAT on boats sailing along coast (out on the water!)-who couldn't prove had to go in & pay. It's logical that authorities are highly motivated as there is a lot of tax to be collected with fairly little effort. I'd never rely on luck with the sums involved...

[CatNewBee]

Because you are from Austria I guess, German language is not to difficult for you to read:

https://www.boatshop24.com/de/boot-k...oote-und-y/136

With respect: Kenomac has posted indeed a lot about European VAT, but he is a non-EU citizen and has little clue how VAT works at all, what it means to EU citizen / residents, and why the topic is so important for a EU resident as owner of a boat.

Just read the article or use Google on official Tax Authority / Boat registration websites in the EU. There are also the OFFICIAL international agreements in the EU for advanced readers knowing what the legal terms mean.

Some reading about the VAT / Import Tax:
https://www.boot.de/cgi-bin/md_boot/...cket=g_u_e_s_t

some hints for EU residents when shopping for a boat:
https://www.boot.de/cgi-bin/md_boot/...cket=g_u_e_s_t
https://www.bvww.org/index.php?id=140&uid=130&mode=pdf

VAT-percentages per EU country as Entry-Port:
http://www.insidersegeln.de/behoerde...wertsteuer.pdf

Some reading about pitfalls with the VAT:
https://www.boat24.com/de/blog/mehrw...-zu-vermeiden/

And this is the Legal stuff:

https://publications.europa.eu/de/pu...6f/language-de

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please do a search on this topic, I’ve literally written 200-300 posts on this subject. We are US and Canadian citizens who keep a non vat paid boat in the Med indefinitely... all done legally and without paying vat.

A boatload of vat misinformation and nonsense on this thread so far.

We are presuming his nationality is Austrian, therefore why do you think your circumstances being a johnny foreigner are in anyway similar to someone who could be a EU citizen?

He has stated his desire to register the yacht in Austria, but you knew this didn't you because you read the thread first before replying, didn't you.

Peter

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Because you are from Austria I guess, German language is not to difficult for you to read:

https://www.boatshop24.com/de/boot-k...oote-und-y/136

With respect: Kenomac has posted indeed a lot about European VAT, but he is a non-EU citizen and has little clue how VAT works at all, what it means to EU citizen / residents, and why the topic is so important for a EU resident as owner of a boat.

Just read the article or use Google on official Tax Authority / Boat registration websites in the EU. There are also the OFFICIAL international agreements in the EU for advanced readers knowing what the legal terms mean.

Some reading about the VAT / Import Tax:
https://www.boot.de/cgi-bin/md_boot/...cket=g_u_e_s_t

some hints for EU residents when shopping for a boat:
https://www.boot.de/cgi-bin/md_boot/...cket=g_u_e_s_t
https://www.bvww.org/index.php?id=140&uid=130&mode=pdf

VAT-percentages per EU country as Entry-Port:
http://www.insidersegeln.de/behoerde...wertsteuer.pdf

Some reading about pitfalls with the VAT:
https://www.boat24.com/de/blog/mehrw...-zu-vermeiden/

And this is the Legal stuff:

https://publications.europa.eu/de/pu...6f/language-de

Thank you for all thse liks, will have a good read through the omes i didnt read yet.

The official pages threw me off so far, with too many legal terms it was confusing more than anything but i will give it another shot (maybe I am learning)

Also just to clarify,
I am from Austria with passport and everything. I dont necessarily have to register the boat in austria, but would like to be able to spend worry free time in the EU for years if needed or decided on.

Thank you all for the input!

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by ProjectManaia

I came across this as well, i believe the year is 1986, seems to vary though depending on when the cou try in question (i suppose the country of entering the eu) joined the EU....

Or perhaps it refers to the flag cou try? Or nationality of the skipper (if citizen of the EU)

I tried to understand all tjis all day today and slowly getting knots in my brain 😂

Not trying to hijack the thread, but ...

Does this mean that a boat built in Europe before 1986 is exempt from paying VAT? I ask because I have a Swedish boat from 1976, formerly registered in Germany and now in Brazil. I would love to sail the Med- especially if I don't have to worry about paying VAT!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Pete7

We are presuming his nationality is Austrian, therefore why do you think your circumstances being a johnny foreigner are in anyway similar to someone who could be a EU citizen?

He has stated his desire to register the yacht in Austria, but you knew this didn't you because you read the thread first before replying, didn't you.

Peter

Why do you assume I don't know anything about EU VAT just because I'm a "Johnny Foreigner?" Does that mean when the UK exits the EU, that you'll then become a "Johnny Foreigner" who knows nothing about EU taxes as well... just like me? BTW: I know how to read.

Sort things out yourselves....

The op is welcome to drop me a private message anytime if he would like more information.

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

Not trying to hijack the thread, but ...

Does this mean that a boat built in Europe before 1986 is exempt from paying VAT? I ask because I have a Swedish boat from 1976, formerly registered in Germany and now in Brazil. I would love to sail the Med- especially if I don't have to worry about paying VAT!

Hello there!
This is what i thought or hoped at some point but it seems that you loose your status if the boat is out of the EU for more thann3 years or changes owner outside the EU.
Not sure if one or both of those apply to you but this is what I understand. Feel free to corrsct me though!

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by ProjectManaia

Hello there!
This is what i thought or hoped at some point but it seems that you loose your status if the boat is out of the EU for more thann3 years or changes owner outside the EU.
Not sure if one or both of those apply to you but this is what I understand. Feel free to corrsct me though!

So there is no cut-off age for boats being charged VAT?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

Not trying to hijack the thread, but ...

Does this mean that a boat built in Europe before 1986 is exempt from paying VAT? I ask because I have a Swedish boat from 1976, formerly registered in Germany and now in Brazil. I would love to sail the Med- especially if I don't have to worry about paying VAT!

I might be wrong but its not the VAT on initial purchase that you need to think about but the import duty plus cost of the import and then VAT on top of this which will catch you out. The registered before 1986 thing was a concession to older boats were owners couldn't prove VAT on initial purchase.

There is a difference between VAT on a new purchase and import duty (which also attracts VAT btw).

Some light reading on how the UK interprets the rules:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ade-statistics

[CatNewBee]

I would say, when in doubt, consult your authorities.

As far as I understood:

- boats build before 1984 are not subject to VAT disputes, no proof necessary they are considered "vintage", "legacy"...

- boats built later need EU VAT proof, if you have the first invoice with VAT paid in EU you are fine, you need the original document from the first owner.

- boats imported used into the EU are subject to import tax, VAT payment on the purchase value, not on the new value, plus a EU certification.

- boats bought from an European (Charter) company that has not paid the VAT AND then exported to an other EU Country, so the payment of the VAT cannot be collected by that company - you have to pay the VAT on the current purchase value yourself. Boats bought from a (Charter) company in the same country as you reside have to place the VAT on the invoice and collect it from the buyer, so you are fine, you get an invoice and the VAT is paid during the purchase and transferred to the authorities by the (Charter) company. If the previous owner is a company and not a private person, or the vessel comes from outside of the EU, the VAT issue comes up.

You can prove EU VAT was paid by showing either original invoice of first buyer with EU-VAT on it, by showing a document from the Toll with VAT paid confirmation, by having a purchase invoice to you with VAT statement and some other accepted official documents that assert legally the VAT status.

The 3-Year rule is still a uncertainty and discussions are going on, only the courts can make a decision upon a dispute I guess. The law considers a vessel, that has left EU waters continuously for more than 3 years as exported, even if the owner has not changed. This can be questioned / disputed probably.

[boatman61]

My experience of buying a 'pre VAT' built boat overseas is that the only thing due is import tax and the fee for making it CE compatible should you wish to sell it on.
Mind.. I did have it as a fulltime liveaboard with no other residence.. anywhere.. hence no need to pay anything.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

boats build before 1984 are not subject to VAT disputes, no proof necessary they are considered "vintage", "legacy"...

In use before 1985 and in the EU on 31 December 1992 can be deemed VAT paid. Some countries that joined later has different dates.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please do a search on this topic, I’ve literally written 200-300 posts on this subject. We are US and Canadian citizens who keep a non vat paid boat in the Med indefinitely... all done legally and without paying vat.

A boatload of vat misinformation and nonsense on this thread so far.

Ken,

The problem is the OP is an EU citizen (Austrian) so the moment he brings the boat back into EU waters regardless of flag state it is liable for VAT.

I looked into re-registering my boat in Isle of Man when Croatia joined the EU as we were non VAT paid under the UK red ensign at the time. No problem to register on IoM or even Gibraltar, Delaware or Labuan (Malaysia) but the EU passport out trumped all that and we'd have to pay VAT on entry.

You are correct that a Non EU citizen may keep a non EU flagged (or even an EU flagged) boat in the EU for an indefinite period thanks to the 18 month temporary importation rule, where you only need to sail out of EU waters and back in again to re-qualify for a further 18 months (ie sail into recognised International Waters or a Non EU state waters).

You as non EU, non Schengen state citizens though are limited to 90 days in a rolling 180 days unless you have a permanent leave to enter visa for an EU/Schengen state.

Might want to watch out for sneak rules now Canada has it's trade agreement with the EU though.

VAT, Customs and EU taxation in general are a minefield but if you are going to import a boat into the EU try to make it to Malta as they have the lowest VAT rate in the union.

Cheers

Keiron

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by ProjectManaia

But wouldnt it still be customs where i have to pay VAT upon first arrival? Never saw a cradit card machine there...?
Sorry if this sounds silly but i a actually wondering....

I have entered EC with an USA flagged boat and an EC passport. The custom officer told me that I have 30 days to either pay VAT or to leave EC.

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I have entered EC with an USA flagged boat and an EC passport. The custom officer told me that I have 30 days to either pay VAT or to leave EC.

Ok, now that is a very useful piece of information! In 30 days there is skme wiggle room to sort things out at least! Thank you for that!