eBay sale went south

[john61ct]

It isn't a matter of the seller returning the money. PayPal will do so and just pull it from whatever bank accounts you have tied to their system.

[jkishel]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

According to ebay rules, it’s your responsibility to get him the dinghy, which means turning it over to him via shipping or in person.... you are responsible. How does he know it even exists?

Give him back his money.

Not necessarily, here is the pertinent eBay policy:

We do not transfer legal ownership of items from the seller to the buyer
Utah Code Annotated § 70A-2-401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2) apply to the transfer of ownership between the buyer and the seller, unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise

Here is the pertinent part of Uniform Commercial Code 2-410:

3) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed where delivery is to be made without moving the goods,

(a) if the seller is to deliver a document of title, title passes at the time when and the place where he delivers such documents

So, unless they agreed otherwise, seller simply had to deliver title to buyer, which it appears he did not do.

Again, why buyer made payment under these circumstances, I do not know....

[Kenomac]

Well... if the seller does not intend to refund the money, then I’m just glad that I haven’t run into anyone like him on ebay after over 3000 transactions.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by jkishel

Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Real estate, including residential property.
Financial products or investments of any kind.
Businesses (when you buy or invest in a business).
Vehicles, including, but not limited to, motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats.
Significantly Not As Described claims for custom-made items.
Donations including payments on crowdfunding platforms.
Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy.
For Item Not Received claims, items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought in a seller’s store location.
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing.

Thanks much. Seems like this may also be a pertinent part relative to PayPal refunds - "For Item Not Received claims, items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought in a seller’s store location".

[S/V_Surya]

This was not a title transfer this was a bill of sale and he was fine with that. There is no title.
In my email to him about where and when to pick up the boat he agreed in the affirmative.

[Terra Nova]

The seller's act was unscrupulous; he made no effort to secure from theft the property he sold before leaving town. The same as if he had sold an item to one of us, for local pickup, and then notified us that it was near the curb in front of his house, and that we should pick it up before someone took it.

[Wotname]

Leaving aside the legalities, the buyer is a bit of a mug for buying unseen AND waiting a couple of weeks to pick up the dinghy.
The seller was being careless or irresponsible with the dinghy after receiving payment.

Both are common traits and neither are crimes so IMO so surely decent people would just split the difference and take half the loss each - assuming no fraud can be proved.

[jkishel]

Originally Posted by S/V_Surya

This was not a title transfer this was a bill of sale and he was fine with that. There is no title.
In my email to him about where and when to pick up the boat he agreed in the affirmative.

OK, thank you for the additional facts! Again, assuming there was in fact an enforceable contract in place, the buyer agreed to your delivery terms; boat tied up at a specified location, bill of sale aboard. I don't know why anyone would do that but he did. Once you put the bill of sale on board the vessel and advised the seller that the boat was his to pick up, you fully performed your obligations under the sales contract (assuming there was one) in my opinion. Any subsequent loss of or damage to the vessel accrued to the buyer unless otherwise agreed.

I keep mentioning the existence of a contract. A sales contract for more than $500 or so depending on jurisdiction requires a written contract. Here is an excerpt from eBay's User Agreement:

"2. About eBay
eBay is a marketplace that allows users to offer, sell and buy just about anything in a variety of pricing formats and locations. The actual contract for sale is directly between the seller and buyer. eBay is not a traditional auctioneer."

In my opinion, your communications with the buyer on eBay (and PayPal especially) may be evidence of a contract, along with emails and other communications. Without all the details it is impossible to know whether an enforceable contract exists or not.

[donradcliffe]

While its not quite the same, in our town theft of Amazon packages off porches is a daily occurrence. Who eats that loss--the Buyer or the Seller??

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by S/V_Surya

[...]With all this rain I am going to pull drain plug so it does not fill with water. It has a bilge pump but I think it pulled down the battery.[...]

Reading the above I thought: "Maybe the dinghy is still there, just 6 foot lower now?"


Sorry, couldn't resist...



On a more serious note, this is an interesting case for sure and lots of legal info around such a matter. I'm also rather surprised Ebay already ruled in your favour.


It seems that both parties were negligent to some degree and the suggestion of splitting the losses might be reasonable here. Ebay allows a partial refund from the seller. Since you already got a ruling in your favor you can only hope the seller is not entitled to questioning it. Otherwise you could offer a 50% refund and be done with it.


As it stands, the dinghy either:
- never existed or was not delivered to the dock hence you're the scammer

- got stolen by a third party
- was taken by the buyer and he's the scammer, or
- is still there, as mentioned above

[Larry Florida]

The buyer should and will get a refund.

You're welcome

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Larry Florida

The buyer should and will get a refund.

You're welcome

What for

[Sailorbob8599]

Wow! … I would have a real problem with anyone who would take my money & immediately "leave town" saying (after the fact), I told you where I left it, so it's your problem. … very, very fishy indeed. We call those kind of people "shysters" where I come from.

Regardless of all the pros & cons here, I would definitely find in favour of the buyer because in my opinion, the seller should have made absolutely certain of the security of the dink before leaving town & he obviously did not.

I just made a fairly large sale on Craigslist. I had the buyer come to my home to collect the item. I made sure the buyer was satisfied with his purchase by allowing him to operate the machinery prior to taking his money. I helped him load the item onto his truck. That's what a trustworthy seller does IMHO.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it sure as hell ain't no chicken so my money's on the buyer. Give him back his money.

The only way I would fault the buyer is to question his lack of common sense if he truly accepted the terms of transfer. I know I wouldn't.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

Wow! … I would have a real problem with anyone who would take my money & immediately "leave town" saying (after the fact), I told you where I left it, so it's your problem. … very, very fishy indeed. We call those kind of people "shysters" where I come from.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's fishy since they agreed on those terms via email and to pick up the item ASAP.

Instead it took the buyer two full weeks to finally get into gear...

[Larry Florida]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

What for

Read post 22 which was delivered after the so called transaction.