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Old 09-07-2018, 13:48   #31
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Re: eBay sale went south

Wait... it was not even locked, and it was behind a restaurant?

Weíre the delivery terms in the auction description?

What feedback rating did the buyer have (not that it proves anything)?

I donít care what contract law says, you made a mistake and Iím 99% certain eBay will find for the buyer, who may or may not be scamming you.
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Old 09-07-2018, 14:07   #32
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Re: eBay sale went south

Tricky situation. While technically, it would be the new owner's problem on the surface, the seller should have made an effort to secure the dinghy against theft and/or advised the new owner that the dinghy was insecure and at risk of theft and recommend options, and assist if required, for securing it. After all, the seller was aware that there are a number of "ex felons" in the area and suspects it was an "inside job" and the dinghy was still under his care. Imagine buying a car and taking ownership of it only to have the seller park it in a dubious area with the keys in the ignition waiting for you to pick it up? It really isn't that much different.


I think the buyer has a case if he wants to get a refund. Especially if he finds out that even the seller considered the unattended storage location high risk.
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Old 09-07-2018, 14:14   #33
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Re: eBay sale went south

The problem stated here was simply that the seller and buyer had reached an agreement for a dinghy being sold on ebay. The money was apparently exchanged via Ebay/Paypal. Rather than delivering the dinghy in person, the seller left the dinghy “well-secured” in an unguarded/ungated marina. The seller claims to have sent a notarized bill of sale to the buyer and “advised him of the location of the boat for “pick up'. The seller alleges that the buyer waited “two weeks” to take possession, and apparently found the boat missing, and further that the buyer “filed a police report”.


The seller contends “that the boat was the buyer's and he waited too long to pick it up.”. The buyer is alleged to be seeking a refund from Paypal. The seller believes that the date the buyer paid in full and was sent a notarized bill of sale establishes the date of transfer of ownership and thus the loss must surely be the buyer's as of that implied date.


This is full of holes, as follows:


  1. DMV.org states “You will likely need a bill of sale form whenever you buy a vehicle from, or sell one to, another person. This form serves as a record of necessary information, including the date of sale, price, vehicle information, and names/addresses for both the seller and the buyer. The bill of sale form is NOT an official document proving ownership, but rather a record of the transaction between parties.”
  2. A typical bill of sale includes a full description of the property, location, names and addresses of both parties and BOTH parties' signatures. The seller did not provide a copy of the bill of sale's language. It appears the buyer never signed the document. There is no claim of proof of delivery of either the boat or of the bill of sale.
  3. Florida requires a standard bill of sale for any boat sold/bought in the state, which acts as both a notice of sale and as a bill of sale. Like most states the document must be signed by both parties. Florida and most states provide a standard form.
  4. The seller claims the boat was “well-secured” to the dock, but does not state how. Still this was a red herring, as what is at issue is was whether the buyer had taken possession. It appears the boat was never delivered to the buyer.
  5. It is typical for private bills of sale to designate when, where and how the property will be delivered. Without a copy of the properly signed bill of sale, we have no idea but I suspect proper delivery was neither agreed nor made.
  6. The seller left the boat in an unguarded marina. His claim of “two weeks” is specious, as the boat could have been stolen an hour after the probably faulty bill was “sent”.
  7. Ebay makes clear that for a sale to be final the boat/car must be delivered, accompanied by a certificate of title. It seems the seller neither delivered the dinghy or a title. Until delivery is made the boat remained the seller's property and responsibility. The only exception to this would be a signed acceptance of delivery by the buyer, noting the current location of the boat.




Here's the key: “When acting as the Notice of Sale, Florida's standard notice/bill notifies the DHSMV that you've sold your vehicle/boat. This form frees you from liability and is especially important during the period between selling the vehicle and the new owner titling the vehicle. “ (DMV.org). Again, this notice/bill of sale MUST be signed by both parties or the sale in incomplete. No exceptions.


It is particularly bizarre that the seller – apparently unilaterally – executed a Delaware bill, when the boat, sale (and failed delivery) were in Florida. Apparently the seller didn't even have a hull number, good grief. Again, if this seller wants to make a case let's have a copy of the ad, the communications, the notice/bill and of any communications or special agreements regarding the delivery.



Sorry to say, but I'm entirely with the buyer on this one. A complete seller FUBAR.
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Old 09-07-2018, 14:16   #34
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Re: eBay sale went south

Yes seller is SOL
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Old 09-07-2018, 14:50   #35
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Re: eBay sale went south

I do not find the source(s) of some the "facts" and there is nothing attached to the post that says it provides a copy of the bill of sale, BUT if the buyer reported the theft to the police, does that not allow a reasonable inference that the/she believed it was stolen from him/her, not the previous owner?
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Old 09-07-2018, 15:10   #36
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Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzstar View Post
I do not find the source(s) of some the "facts" and there is nothing attached to the post that says it provides a copy of the bill of sale, BUT if the buyer reported the theft to the police, does that not allow a reasonable inference that the/she believed it was stolen from him/her, not the previous owner?
Depends on what was reported. If you paid a fistful of dollars to someone and went to pick the goods up and nether the goods or buyer were there, would you not make a police report?

The buyer might have reported fraud and not theft. Besides, that action is a clear indication that the buyer isn't running a scam.
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Old 09-07-2018, 15:23   #37
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Re: eBay sale went south

Lots of misinformation here.

Reminds me of my old law school exams.

1. Not clear from the facts provided that there was ever an enforceable sales contract here. Sale of goods for greater than $500 requires sufficiently detailed contract in writing (Statute of Frauds).

2. If emails plus eBay plus PayPal do, in fact, represent an enforceable contract (and they may), the issue would be whether seller ever delivered the boat to the buyer.

3. In the absence of contract terms around delivery, for goods that aren't to be moved (both parties seemed to understand that buyer would pick up boat behind the restaurant), delivery occurs when proper title documents are delivered to buyer (Uniform Commercial Code section 2-401, part of eBay's user's agreement).

4. The emailed bill of sale, unsigned by seller, probably does not constitute "title documents delivered to buyer." Nor does the original bill of sale, unsigned by buyer, hidden under the seat of the dinghy. Florida requires a proper bill of sale, title, etc.

5. Buyer remitted payment to Seller through PayPal. PayPal does have a refund policy for goods not delivered, but it does not apply to certain transactions, including boat sales, so buyer would appear to be out of luck there. That's why PayPal "found in favor" of seller - not really, they just didn't reimburse buyer.

6. Not sure what eBay can or would do for anyone here, they aren't really a party to this transaction, they don't process payment or transfer title, they're just a market meeting place.

7. So unless there are more facts here, it would appear that either there never was an enforceable contract between buyer and seller or if there was such a contract, seller may have never delivered proper title to buyer, so seller was not entitled to payment. Your guess is as good as mine as to why buyer made payment under these circumstances.

8. Good example of why it is important to have a written sales contract with delivery terms specifying what constitutes delivery (where, when, how) and which party bears the risk of loss/damage in the interim.
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Old 09-07-2018, 16:01   #38
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Re: eBay sale went south

Nothing to do with law, contracts or anything else, the **practical** issue is eBay / PayPal policy.

Very much in favor of the buyer, just like quality US credit cards, basically NQAMB guarantee, no matter what the ad might say about "as is no returns".

**The only** exceptions AFAIK are when paying cash at pickup time, or (sometimes) when the item is classified as "not working, for parts only".

eBay is a great place for buying stuff, but very risky for sellers.
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Old 09-07-2018, 16:04   #39
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Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkishel View Post
Lots of misinformation here.

Reminds me of my old law school exams.

1. Not clear from the facts provided that there was ever an enforceable sales contract here. Sale of goods for greater than $500 requires sufficiently detailed contract in writing (Statute of Frauds).

2. If emails plus eBay plus PayPal do, in fact, represent an enforceable contract (and they may), the issue would be whether seller ever delivered the boat to the buyer.

3. In the absence of contract terms around delivery, for goods that aren't to be moved (both parties seemed to understand that buyer would pick up boat behind the restaurant), delivery occurs when proper title documents are delivered to buyer (Uniform Commercial Code section 2-401, part of eBay's user's agreement).

4. The emailed bill of sale, unsigned by seller, probably does not constitute "title documents delivered to buyer." Nor does the original bill of sale, unsigned by buyer, hidden under the seat of the dinghy. Florida requires a proper bill of sale, title, etc.

5. Buyer remitted payment to Seller through PayPal. PayPal does have a refund policy for goods not delivered, but it does not apply to certain transactions, including boat sales, so buyer would appear to be out of luck there. That's why PayPal "found in favor" of seller - not really, they just didn't reimburse buyer.

6. Not sure what eBay can or would do for anyone here, they aren't really a party to this transaction, they don't process payment or transfer title, they're just a market meeting place.

7. So unless there are more facts here, it would appear that either there never was an enforceable contract between buyer and seller or if there was such a contract, seller may have never delivered proper title to buyer, so seller was not entitled to payment. Your guess is as good as mine as to why buyer made payment under these circumstances.

8. Good example of why it is important to have a written sales contract with delivery terms specifying what constitutes delivery (where, when, how) and which party bears the risk of loss/damage in the interim.
Did you finish law school and take or pass the bar exam? Auction contracts are enforceable. If you really want to research the subject in the absence of clean facts, try the Florida version of the Uniform Commercial Code and the eBay rules. My take remains that the two week delay is a killer for the buyer. Almost certainly the buyer prevails if the (attempted) pickup of the item is within a few days (most likely whatever a "reasonable time" may be if it is not specifically defined) but probably not two weeks later. But then you get into the problem of proper safeguarding (is there a bailment?) and disclosure from the seller to the buyer about the location. I can think of lots more, but....
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Old 09-07-2018, 16:30   #40
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Re: eBay sale went south

we could debate legalities all day long and still go to trial-- that is how lawyers make their living. I think the poster that said what is the moral thing to do hit the right note. leaving an item in a known problem area with no supervision doesn't cut it for me. did the OP leave the boat there in similar circumstance before he sold it? or was he more careful when it was "his" -- two weeks is a long time BUT the buyer should have been made aware that there was an issue immediately and contacted prior to the OP leaving town-- give the dude his money back and chock this one up as a loss but you will still be able to look at yourself in the mirror.
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Old 09-07-2018, 17:04   #41
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Re: eBay sale went south

Everybody is confusing ownership and liability with what PayPal determines.

In the scenario described, the buyer took ownership legally if not physically after which the boat went missing. Any law school student would argue successfully that the buyer has sole responsibility.

Unfortunately, what PayPal does is a function of their policy and practice. That's why I and many other people don't use Paypal under any circumstance.
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Old 09-07-2018, 17:31   #42
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Re: eBay sale went south

Yes I did complete law school and passed the bar. You obviously did not.
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Old 09-07-2018, 17:48   #43
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Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkishel View Post
5. Buyer remitted payment to Seller through PayPal. PayPal does have a refund policy for goods not delivered, but it does not apply to certain transactions, including boat sales, so buyer would appear to be out of luck there. That's why PayPal "found in favor" of seller - not really, they just didn't reimburse buyer.
I agree that the "found in favor" statement by the OP did not make sense, but I am curious about exceptions to eBay/PayPal dispute and refund policies for boat sales. I read through the eBay/PayPal dispute resolution policies/procedures and could not find this exclusion. Can you provide a reference?
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Old 09-07-2018, 18:07   #44
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Re: eBay sale went south

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...ase-protection

In pertinent part:

Ineligible items and transactions under PayPalís Purchase Protection program
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Real estate, including residential property.
Financial products or investments of any kind.
Businesses (when you buy or invest in a business).
Vehicles, including, but not limited to, motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats.
Significantly Not As Described claims for custom-made items.
Donations including payments on crowdfunding platforms.
Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy.
For Item Not Received claims, items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought in a sellerís store location.
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing.
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Old 09-07-2018, 18:24   #45
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Re: eBay sale went south

According to ebay rules, itís your responsibility to get him the dinghy, which means turning it over to him via shipping or in person.... you are responsible. How does he know it even exists?

Give him back his money.
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