Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-07-2018, 08:27   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 22
Re: eBay sale went south

What is the moral thing to do?
__________________

donahue62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 09:01   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 13,872
Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by donahue62 View Post
What is the moral thing to do?
Interesting no one else has mentioned this. What is legal and what is moral are not always the same thing.

In this case I think a big issue is the understanding between buyer and seller on the handoff. If the buyer was to pick it up sooner and showed up after two weeks then I think it would be his/her problem. If the buyer arrived at the agreed time and place (as chosen by the seller) to find no dink then I think it would have been the sellers responsibility to make sure the dink was safe and secure.

Of course the whole thing is complicated by the fact that there is no documentation or witnesses to the fact that the dink was placed there by the seller or if it was stolen before the buyer arrived.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.

Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.

Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 09:23   #18
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Luperon DR
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,424
Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Interesting no one else has mentioned this. What is legal and what is moral are not always the same thing.

In this case I think a big issue is the understanding between buyer and seller on the handoff. If the buyer was to pick it up sooner and showed up after two weeks then I think it would be his/her problem. If the buyer arrived at the agreed time and place (as chosen by the seller) to find no dink then I think it would have been the sellers responsibility to make sure the dink was safe and secure.

Of course the whole thing is complicated by the fact that there is no documentation or witnesses to the fact that the dink was placed there by the seller or if it was stolen before the buyer arrived.
The correct ethical action (forget about morals) is to refund the buyer's money and take the loss.

Yes, it's a quandary; the buyer can realistically suspect that the dink never existed and they were scammed. The seller can realistically suspect that the dink was taken by the buyer who then claimed lack of receipt. There is no possible way of validating either side's story.

The OP stated their mistake was to state that the dink had to be picked up within 48 hours. Even then, if could have been stolen during that period. The question becomes what is "adequately secure". I would say that if it is not in your possession or in some other way very secure, it's not adequately secure.

As for whether someone is the owner as soon as they have paid, that's fuzzy. Usually they are the owner when they take receipt of goods or title.

I would write off the loss to "lesson learned."

I highly doubt eBay would find in the seller's favor. I've been using eBay since 1998 and over time they have swung heavily to finding for buyers when there is a dispute for the simple reason that buyer confidence is more important to seller confidence in their business model, and sellers have tools and controls to ensure and prove delivery.
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 09:27   #19
Registered User
 
jackheape's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Columbia, SC
Boat: Hunter 34
Posts: 76
Re: eBay sale went south

What was the agreement with the buyer regarding pick up? Were you to deliver it in person? Was he supposed to pick it up right away? Was he on board with you leaving it for him to pick up later at his convenience? Did he look at it before buying? Is any of this in writing or on a recorded phone call? Cannot really offer you an opinion without all the facts. I myself would never have agreed to pay someone for something sight unseen then pick up at a later date with no guarantee of delivery or that the item was as described.
jackheape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 09:59   #20
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Mako 248
Posts: 4,089
Re: eBay sale went south

OP screwed up. Buyer should get all his money back plus an apology for wasting his time.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 10:00   #21
Registered User
 
S/V_Surya's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sasafra river,MD
Boat: gulfstar ketch 41 Surya
Posts: 674
Re: eBay sale went south

[QUOTE=Hardhead;2669675]Unless there is a specific provision regarding physical receipt of the boat in the contract, the transfer of ownership should be complete upon payment in full, and transfer of a satisfied bill of sale to the buyer.

It is an unusual situation, and looking at it from a buyer's perspective, it seems unfair, but under strict contract law, I believe the analysis above is correct.[/QUOTE
This is exactly my position.
S/V_Surya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 10:09   #22
Registered User
 
S/V_Surya's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sasafra river,MD
Boat: gulfstar ketch 41 Surya
Posts: 674
Re: eBay sale went south

Here is a copy of the email I sent him.


Attached is the notarized bill of sale. I will put original on the boat under from seat. Should stay dry there. I did a Delaware bill of sale because that is where boat was registered and I do not want to confuse Florida. Also I attached a letter I gave to Delaware because I could not find the hull number. I did find it about 6 months ago on lower starboard side in the back if you wish to fix this issue.
With all this rain I am going to pull drain plug so it does not fill with water. It has a bilge pump but I think it pulled down the battery.
As said earlier the boat is at 18550 San Carlos blvd, Fort Myers Beach. It is behind Maria's Sea Food Restaurant tied up next to a sailboat. I would suggest you come and get it asap. Nobody is here to look after it.
Thanks
S/V_Surya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 11:04   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: MD DC area/Annapolis/Baltimore
Boat: 1985 Catalina 27
Posts: 229
Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
(heh, I think I know that marina & restaurant)

Regrettably, I would agree that the loss is the responsibility of the seller. Everything the OP posted could be true... yet how does the buyer or Ebay know this? I think the OP could have done a better job of securing the dinghy - eg have the marina store it in a lock-up. Of course hindsight is 20-20.

It's also a cautionary tale for both buyers and sellers: on a big ticket item, be very cautious about how the deal is closed, and who has responsibility and when.
I'm not an attorney but that makes sense.
ferrailleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 11:07   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 13,872
Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V_Surya View Post
Here is a copy of the email I sent him.


Attached is the notarized bill of sale. I will put original on the boat under from seat. Should stay dry there. I did a Delaware bill of sale because that is where boat was registered and I do not want to confuse Florida. Also I attached a letter I gave to Delaware because I could not find the hull number. I did find it about 6 months ago on lower starboard side in the back if you wish to fix this issue.
With all this rain I am going to pull drain plug so it does not fill with water. It has a bilge pump but I think it pulled down the battery.
As said earlier the boat is at 18550 San Carlos blvd, Fort Myers Beach. It is behind Maria's Sea Food Restaurant tied up next to a sailboat. I would suggest you come and get it asap. Nobody is here to look after it.
Thanks
Your email seems pretty clear. Did the buyer respond to this in any way, agreeing or not to the terms?

If not, according to the company lawyers at a previous employer, any terms or conditions of sale between two parties that is communicated from one to the other (assuming no extenuating circumstances) is considered legally binding unless denied or questioned by the other party.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.

Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.

Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 11:14   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 13,872
Re: eBay sale went south

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
The correct ethical action (forget about morals) is to refund the buyer's money and take the loss.

Yes, it's a quandary; the buyer can realistically suspect that the dink never existed and they were scammed. The seller can realistically suspect that the dink was taken by the buyer who then claimed lack of receipt. There is no possible way of validating either side's story.

The OP stated their mistake was to state that the dink had to be picked up within 48 hours. Even then, if could have been stolen during that period. The question becomes what is "adequately secure". I would say that if it is not in your possession or in some other way very secure, it's not adequately secure.

As for whether someone is the owner as soon as they have paid, that's fuzzy. Usually they are the owner when they take receipt of goods or title.

I would write off the loss to "lesson learned."

I highly doubt eBay would find in the seller's favor. I've been using eBay since 1998 and over time they have swung heavily to finding for buyers when there is a dispute for the simple reason that buyer confidence is more important to seller confidence in their business model, and sellers have tools and controls to ensure and prove delivery.
Post #7 OP stated Paypal ruled in his favor. Like you, my experience is eBay and Paypal lean to the side of the buyer so there must have been some compelling evidence to rule for the seller.

Regarding the legal transfer, again from someone NOT a lawyer but based on 25 years buying and selling, unless specified otherwise in most cases the ownership and liability transfers to the buyer when payment and any required documents are exchanged.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.

Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.

Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 11:16   #26
Registered User
 
LLGJ's Avatar

Join Date: May 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 5
Re: eBay sale went south

In this day and age there's no security video camera at the marina?
LLGJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 11:19   #27
Registered User
 
buzzstar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ashore in So Calif.
Boat: No more boat (my medical, not the boat's)
Posts: 1,450
Re: eBay sale went south

While I agree that eBay is very buyer oriented, I also believe it is true that the transaction is complete when title/bill of sale is delivered, and payment is made. Two weeks is a long time to delay, and certainly is not the seller's responsibility. But then eBay and or Florida law probably rules. I'd emphasize the two weeks. Any insurance?
__________________
"Old California"
buzzstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 12:36   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: essex england
Boat: 22ft falmouth oyster dredger.
Posts: 113
Re: eBay sale went south

hi, did you notify buyer of you intention with an ebay message. then there would be a record of your claim. but if it was a posted note with the bill, you cannot prove you ever notified him, or sent a bill of sale, in fact no proof the dinghy ever existed,
scallowayuk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 12:44   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,261
Re: eBay sale went south

The best solution would be for the buyer to file an insurance claim for his stolen dinghy. He's already got the police report the insurance company will want. If he has a "homeowners" policy the dinghy was likely covered the moment he paid for it. My homeowners policy covers boats up to 21ft without a need to tell the insurance company.

Even if the owner didn't already have a policy covering the dinghy, insurance companies commonly issue binders to cover new purchases - but you have to remember to call them.
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 13:36   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 866
Re: eBay sale went south

You did not have protective language for this eventuality (nor probably other eventualities) in your Bill of Sale. I think you know what I mean. Also, you have just admitted on this forum that you are aware that there is no security at the place the dinghy was left, there may be felons about the neighborhood, it was in plain view of an open air restaurant and therefore everyone else; all evidence that may be used against your.

I think you are toast.
__________________

jmschmidt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sale

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
fridge went south before the boat did Shala Provisioning: Food & Drink 11 02-03-2017 09:31
Another Big eBay Blowout Sale - :) ssullivan Classifieds Archive 27 16-07-2008 11:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.