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Old 25-01-2014, 17:33   #31
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

I don't believe that was a survey, more like a prologue to an expensive horror story.

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Old 26-01-2014, 11:25   #32
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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Originally Posted by Vancefish View Post
Just the posted picture of the "smile" may have saved me more then $20,000!!!

Not bad for a little over $400.
You posted a picture of the keel joint???
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Old 26-01-2014, 11:41   #33
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

Lets bash the surveyor ..... I don't know if he was any good or not but lets not condemn him for the boat not being ready for survey or for refusing to come back for free when it was. The OP said the keel bolts could not be inspected because the bilge was full of water (likely black scummy stuff). It's not the surveyors job to clean bilges. Later comment was made that sole panels were screwed in place. It is not the surveyors job to dismantle a boat to to get access for inspection. Many owners have held surveyors liable for damage done during survey so anything that requires tools to open must be opened for the surveyor. The boat should be ready for survey when he arrives.
Preparing For a Survey

PS. The smile shown in the OP is fairly typical and 95% of the time is inconsequential.
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Old 26-01-2014, 11:46   #34
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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OK, I have to ask ... why on earth would the surveyor not look at something as critical as keel bolts ?
Every survey I've seen, you will always find something that they didn't. It's just not possible for them to get it all right. Sometimes it's egregious oversights and sometimes it's small potatoes but I look at surveys now like taking a car to a mechanic before you buy it. It's definitely worth doing but there's just way too many things to expect someone to find in a day (or a half a day, or two days, or whatever).
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Old 26-01-2014, 11:52   #35
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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Every survey I've seen, you will always find something that they didn't. It's just not possible for them to get it all right. Sometimes it's egregious oversights and sometimes it's small potatoes but I look at surveys now like taking a car to a mechanic before you buy it. It's definitely worth doing but there's just way too many things to expect someone to find in a day (or a half a day, or two days, or whatever).
Yes and OP's response was they were not accessible, not the surveyors fault.
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Old 26-01-2014, 11:54   #36
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Lets bash the surveyor ..... I don't know if he was any good or not but lets not condemn him for the boat not being ready for survey or for refusing to come back for free when it was. The OP said the keel bolts could not be inspected because the bilge was full of water (likely black scummy stuff). It's not the surveyors job to clean bilges. Later comment was made that sole panels were screwed in place. It is not the surveyors job to dismantle a boat to to get access for inspection. Many owners have held surveyors liable for damage done during survey so anything that requires tools to open must be opened for the surveyor. The boat should be ready for survey when he arrives.
Preparing For a Survey

PS. The smile shown in the OP is fairly typical and 95% of the time is inconsequential.
You do raise some pretty excellent points for sure.... I missed the coming back for free part... That's should never be expected...I think there's a communication issue between the surveyor and purchaser ... Likely neither fully at fault...
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Old 26-01-2014, 12:05   #37
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

Don't scare yourself needlessly. Obviously this boat has a reason that it's so cheap. Ask the owner why. Very few people can lie convincingly.

Then talk to the yard. They know the boat's history and have probably worked on it. You will be a customer. They don't want an unhappy customer. Ask them what they think has to be done and how much it will cost.

Do you really want to go offshore (e.g. far enough that you can't get to harbor in a day)?. In that case, this isn't the right boat and your budget is missing a zero.

If you just want to use it for coastal cruising, then you can safely get by with a less than perfect boat. That smile isn't a problem unless some bolts are actually broken. Easy to check. Put a wrench on the nut and see if the bolt spins. Would it be a good idea to replace the bolts in a boat that's this old - sure. But you don't have to tackle everything the first year.

Is the engine really shot? A great thing about a sailboat is that you aren't completely dependent on a working engine. You can always sail home. Get a mechanic to give you a guess on repairing the engine "good enough" (it will probably be a wide price range but likely still much cheaper than a new engine).

Your first girl friend is not usually the girl you marry -- but that isn't the point
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Old 26-01-2014, 12:08   #38
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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Your first girl friend is not usually the right one to marry - but it happens
But typically a helluva lot more fun....
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Old 26-01-2014, 12:50   #39
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

Say, boatpoker...if you knew any surveyors, or perhaps were in a similar line of business, and some pretty obvious newbie said to you "I need eyes and ears and a professional opinion..."

Do you think that someone who maybe had heard similar requests before, and had sone slight experience with "Ergh, gee, I can't TOUCH anything, I can only LOOK" might also have the professionalism and good sense to tell the newbie "I can't TOUCH anything, I can only LOOK, so be REAL DAMN SURE that the owner has everything exposed, or gives us written permission to have things TOUCHED and EXPOSED, or else my trip will be a waste of time and money."

Ya think? Assuming the guy is right, and state laws prohibit him from TOUCHING anything without express permission?

Here's you bill for neurosurgery. of course I didn't actually DO it, there are state laws that prohibit me from practicing medicine. Hmmm.....Ain't that funny?
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:01   #40
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Say, boatpoker...if you knew any surveyors, or perhaps were in a similar line of business, and some pretty obvious newbie said to you "I need eyes and ears and a professional opinion..."

Do you think that someone who maybe had heard similar requests before, and had sone slight experience with "Ergh, gee, I can't TOUCH anything, I can only LOOK" might also have the professionalism and good sense to tell the newbie "I can't TOUCH anything, I can only LOOK, so be REAL DAMN SURE that the owner has everything exposed, or gives us written permission to have things TOUCHED and EXPOSED, or else my trip will be a waste of time and money."

Ya think? Assuming the guy is right, and state laws prohibit him from TOUCHING anything without express permission?

Here's you bill for neurosurgery. of course I didn't actually DO it, there are state laws that prohibit me from practicing medicine. Hmmm.....Ain't that funny?
I understand your point and completely agree. I never accept a job unless the client has read and understood my sample survey reports especially the Scope Of Survey statement that clearly outlines what I do and don't do.

98% of the people I survey for know very little about boats even the ones that tell me "I've been boating for 30 years".

Addressing and informing these people is the aim of all of the articles on my website.

I'll happily jump on the bandwagon against a bad surveyor but there are always three sides to each story.
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:07   #41
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

A little more on why surveyors don't use tools to open anything... I once cut a small slot in shrink wrap to get the HIN from a boat. It was early spring and the wrap was coming off the following week. Based on my survey my client declined to go through with the deal and the owner was so ticked off with me for finding things wrong with his boat that he sued me for $600. 00 for shrink wrap.
The small claims judge said “Wallace, the mans and idiot, you know it and I know it but you did cut his shrink wrap. I find for the plaintiff”.

I was once sued for removing screws from freshly varnished (over the screws) sole panels and damaging the teak veneer(I didn’t do it). The owner wanted me to replace all his cabin sole. Fortunately I could proved that there was an electrician, a diesel mechanic and prospective buyers on board before me.

Kind of like in a store .... you break it you buy it.

Which is why my Scope statement clearly states that any sealed/fastened compartment should be opened before I arrive.
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:30   #42
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

"but there are always three sides to each story. " Quite so.

On using tools to open things....Have you ever needed 'tools' to lift a bilge board and examine the keel bolts??

And if there are state laws in whatever unspecified state that prevented the surveyor from "opening" anything, dare one ask, how did he get belowdeck in the first place? Surely, he used tools to open the companionway lock? Although I've seen more than one derelict left open to the elements, with a bilge full of soothingly black concealing waters.

Ooooh! Look! That was Nessie! (VBG)
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:34   #43
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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"but there are always three sides to each story. " Quite so.

On using tools to open things....Have you ever needed 'tools' to lift a bilge board and examine the keel bolts??

And if there are state laws in whatever unspecified state that prevented the surveyor from "opening" anything, dare one ask, how did he get belowdeck in the first place? Surely, he used tools to open the companionway lock? Although I've seen more than one derelict left open to the elements, with a bilge full of soothingly black concealing waters.

Ooooh! Look! That was Nessie! (VBG)
There are no laws in this regard that I'm aware of other than the one that says I don't want to be sued. I suspect the OP was paraphrasing that one a little.

The key thing I think is pushing it a little.
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:40   #44
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

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But typically a helluva lot more fun....
I like your sentence better than mine.

I've owned six sailboats. The first was by far the cheapest. Keeping the water out and the mast up was never a sure thing. She was also definitely the most fun.
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Old 26-01-2014, 13:41   #45
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Re: Dream boat or Disaster?

I suppose the psychiatrists have a special Latin name for 'people who want to be sued' but I wouldn't know what that is. (G)

Having boarded a vessel without the owner being present to answer "Come aboard!" and having opened the companionway and established my presence on board and below decks...I'd say I could be accused of many many things, and the act of lifting a bilge board (in secret, unobserved and alone except for the nannycam) to check the bilge wouldn't add to my paranoia about being sued. Sounds more like FUD being blown up someone's, ahem, stern quarters.

Just one man's uninformed speculation, based on a long range of "don't **** on my head and tell me it's raining" experiences.
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