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Old 08-03-2008, 19:52   #121
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Your Responsibilities

Wow, what a wonderful topic and such versatile responses. Let me add my thoughts.

I’m not sure about international waters and other countries, but in the US, the navigable waterways are public domain. They belong to the citizens; much the way roads do on land. Use of those public domains is NOT a right, it is a privilege.

Road usage has evolved thru time to the point that all states require financial liability responsibility, usually insurance, to get plates for a vehicle. Society has determined the minimum requirements. If you cannot protect others in the public domain, you don’t get to go there.

You can go out into your back lot and drive any kind of vehicle anyway you want with no insurance whatsoever. Likewise if you have a pond or lake you can put your boat in there and do anything you want, anyway you want without any insurance. However, when you take your car on to the roadway or your boat into navigable water you have an absolute moral responsibility to others in that public domain.

Not everyone who has an expensive boat is insanely rich. Their boat may represent everything they own, as yours may to you. They have a right to have a peaceful, safe experience. If your action impares their rights, it is your moral and legal obligation to correct the situation.

Waterway usage, boating, rules will continue to evolve, much as roadway usage, driving, rules have evolved. Those rules were put in place by society to protect itself. At sometime, someone’s vehicle was damaged and the “at fault” driver would not, or could not, complete their moral obligation to repair the damage they had caused. Society said, “We can’t have this.” Thus, they enacted laws that may the moral obligation a legal obligation. Boaters are working there way down the same path. If they don’t morally take the responsibility of their actions, society will eventually enact rules that will require them to do what is right.

All that being said, there will always be that few who feel their rights are more important than anyone else’s rights. They are the reason I am required to protect myself from them by buying Uninsured/Underinsured vehicle insurance. Am I sympathetic? Not at all!!!!!!
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:45   #122
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Well said. I don't think I have any thing to add.
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Old 12-03-2008, 17:50   #123
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Wow, what a wonderful topic and such versatile responses. Let me add my thoughts.

I’m not sure about international waters and other countries, but in the US, the navigable waterways are public domain. They belong to the citizens; much the way roads do on land. Use of those public domains is NOT a right, it is a privilege.

Road usage has evolved thru time to the point that all states require financial liability responsibility, usually insurance, to get plates for a vehicle. Society has determined the minimum requirements. If you cannot protect others in the public domain, you don’t get to go there.

You can go out into your back lot and drive any kind of vehicle anyway you want with no insurance whatsoever. Likewise if you have a pond or lake you can put your boat in there and do anything you want, anyway you want without any insurance. However, when you take your car on to the roadway or your boat into navigable water you have an absolute moral responsibility to others in that public domain.

Not everyone who has an expensive boat is insanely rich. Their boat may represent everything they own, as yours may to you. They have a right to have a peaceful, safe experience. If your action impares their rights, it is your moral and legal obligation to correct the situation.

Waterway usage, boating, rules will continue to evolve, much as roadway usage, driving, rules have evolved. Those rules were put in place by society to protect itself. At sometime, someone’s vehicle was damaged and the “at fault” driver would not, or could not, complete their moral obligation to repair the damage they had caused. Society said, “We can’t have this.” Thus, they enacted laws that may the moral obligation a legal obligation. Boaters are working there way down the same path. If they don’t morally take the responsibility of their actions, society will eventually enact rules that will require them to do what is right.

All that being said, there will always be that few who feel their rights are more important than anyone else’s rights. They are the reason I am required to protect myself from them by buying Uninsured/Underinsured vehicle insurance. Am I sympathetic? Not at all!!!!!!
Well said. I am off to buy insurance. (And I don't even have a boat yet!)
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Old 12-03-2008, 21:44   #124
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Just returned from two weeks working on the boat--no Internet. This thread has grown by a couple of pages, still two camps: prosocial versus antisocial. I saw a power boat burn to the waterline last weekend at the fuel dock; very fortunate there were no injuries. Bet me this poor former boat owner sees right though every rationalization for not buying insurance and bet me double that he had no clue that morning that HIS boat would be gone by noon. . . .
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Old 12-03-2008, 22:06   #125
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Bet me this poor former boat owner sees right though every rationalization for not buying insurance
. . . .
OK...............
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Old 12-03-2008, 23:49   #126
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I understand that the decision to insure/not to insure is a personal one, and sometimes that personal decision will be pre-determined by economic reality rather than one's own view of what is right or wrong.

Having said that, If a marina owner or a fuel-wharf owner wants to refuse entry to / use of their facilities to those without (liability) insurance, I'm fine with that too.

For what it is worth, my 40' boat is insured for both cruising and racing (with some restrictions), and the annual premium is about 1% of the insured value (If I were not racing, it would be considerably less, but I am racing, so I am required to have racing cover as a condition of entry). The liability cover is, from memory, $10 million. This buys me, if nothing else, peace of mind. I have not yet made a claim of any sort, but I think that it is money well spent. your mileage may, of course, vary.
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Old 13-03-2008, 03:01   #127
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Thumbs up Hallie

Wow, I have just read nine pages of this thread (which I have been avoiding because its about insurance ). I don't really want to add anything because I think all that can be said, has been said - but I gotta stick my .02 cents worth .

For the record, I don't believe in insuring my boat but by choice I carry third party (property and personal) insurance because I am not willing to lose everything if it hits the fan.

However I really support Hallie's postion as I understand it. She is willing to lose everything she has and give it to you if she causes some damage to you.

WHO can ask MORE of anyone than that. To demand that she enter into a business transaction which she doesn't morally support (i.e. insurance) just because you want to be compensated for the loss to you (caused by her) if your loss is greater than Hallie's worth, is, IMO, morally brankrupt.

IMO, those who want to take more than someone is worth, do so because they want to live in a RISK FREE enviroment. Yes, Hallie is liable to you (and she accepts that); however she CAN only be liable to her total worth (and she is willing to give that). She should not be forced to BUY additional protection to make you feel safer.

Going to sea is inherently risky, if you are not willing to take some risks yourself, don't go.

Heck, life is risky and will end in death - get used to it, be willing to risk stuff along the way and remember Hallie is willing to lose 100%.

I am not, so I buy some third party insurance but I accept the risk that Hallie might sink my un-insured boat. I honour her that she will give me everything she owns and I have no moral right to ask more. So be it.
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Old 13-03-2008, 03:17   #128
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No Insurance....... No Problem

I cruised from Michigan to the Caribbean for 2 1/2 years without Insurance. In 2004 we were in Grenada when Hurricane Ivan came through ( I was at anchor on the boat ). I really can't see how you can justify the cost of travel outside US waters. Before you make a claim its going to cost you $7,000 with your deductable.
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Old 13-03-2008, 03:17   #129
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[quote=Retcoastie;141423...Not everyone who has an expensive boat is insanely rich. Their boat may represent everything they own, as yours may to you. They have a right to have a peaceful, safe experience. If your action impares their rights, it is your moral and legal obligation to correct the situation. ...
quote]
Not sure if we have a RIGHT to have a peaceful, safe, experience. I don't see this reflected elsewhere in on earth, especially in nature. I think we all have an EXPECTATION of such an existence - but right?? and given by who?
I agree totally that if ones actions causes harm, there is a moral and legal obligation to correct it, but only to the extent that one is able to. IMO, one can't do more than give up everything they have to correct the situation.
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Old 13-03-2008, 04:39   #130
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This Thread is almost as frustrating as one you might have about the moral issues over Abortion. In my opinion, there is no “Right or Wrong Answer!”

Reading through all the posts I have these observations which are in no particular order:

1. In high litigation, high yacht density areas…if you live there, better to have 3rd party insurance and better make sure you isolate the boat from your other personal assets, by registering as an offshore limited corporation.

2. Insurance companies will try everything they possibly can to avoid payouts…(personal experience)

3. Insurance companies will not insure a boat that is used as live aboard or ventures offshore on a regular basis to remote areas. Too much of a risk!

4. Those with very expensive boats (like the Morans) are wise to insure against the “uninsured”, but again, have created a legal limited corporate buffer against their own personal liability.

5. As much as we would like to hope for morality between yacht owners… in a major claim, that is too frequently… not the case. Once one of the Insurance companies starts to balk, everyone runs for their lawyers.

6. If you are a recreational sailor whose usage time is well within acceptable limits for insurance Companies to offer a low risk cover, how can you expect a live aboard cruiser, who can not get same cover at the same price to match your coverage?

The bottom line if you are a live aboard cruiser whose net worth is mostly onboard, you are by definition living on the knife edge as opposed to the occasional weekend sailor, who is fed comfortably insured portions from the apex of spoon.

You can not compare the two animals, nor can you expect them to have the same perspective on insurance.
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Old 13-03-2008, 13:48   #131
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Life "IS" risk, I take mine you take yours. I don't care if you want to go sailing, sky diving, bungee jumping or rock climbing. Once you decide that's what you want to do don't ask those that are already doing it, or anybody else for that matter, to take extra care just to protect you. If "YOU" don't like the odds "YOU" stay home. If you ask a cruiser what they most like about it they are overwhelmingly apt to say "The freedom" Maybe my understanding of freedom is a bit old school compared to todays interpretation of it. If my neighbor decides to tear down his modest house and build a multi million dollar mansion that's his choice and freedom to do so, but it's not my moral or ethical duty to buy extra insurance just in case my house catchs fire and may accidentally ignite his. If your fear is like the Morans then you buy uninsured insurance. For a price there enough companies that will write you a policy, just leave me out of your equation of what "YOU" feel is morally and ethically right. If I bump into your boat and do some damage I'll make it right. For those that think they hit the lottery and will sue me out of house and home, yeah right, good luck.
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Old 11-04-2008, 17:24   #132
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Like I said, try giving progressive a call. They did MENTION that it would be cheaper if we had all our insurance under them, and offered to give us a quote, but they didn't push it when we told them all we needed was liability on the boat. I think after we stopped shopping around trying to find the best price it was less than an hour on the phone with them and we had insurance.

Sorry for those of you not in the US. I don't know if you have progressive in those places or not. If you do, might as well give them a call if you havn't already. Really, I had wanted to go without insurance myself at first, but it was relatively painless and I feel better about it now.
Sluissa, does Progressive also cover boats with an extended cruising ground, like the Caribbean or offshore? Where do you usually sail?
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Old 11-04-2008, 18:40   #133
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Liability coverage?

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wow the price difference is radiculous. but i would still have at least 3rd party no matter where i was. makes you wonder why the different countries have so different prices. i think it would be interesting to see a policy to claim ratio for each of the countries and see if that reflects the price differences.
Does liability coverage cover you regardless of where you sail? If you buy a boat in the US, but plan to live aboard her and sail her through the Caribbean or around the world and don't get hull or comprehensive, does the liability still cover you if you damage someone's boat or dock in another country?
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Old 16-04-2008, 21:26   #134
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Does liability coverage cover you regardless of where you sail? If you buy a boat in the US, but plan to live aboard her and sail her through the Caribbean or around the world and don't get hull or comprehensive, does the liability still cover you if you damage someone's boat or dock in another country?
I just bought a boat and got a liability only policy. Reading the fine print I find that it only covers me within 75 miles of the US, or up to 75 miles offshore. Period. No foreign ports, etc.

Mine is a cheap policy with Allstate to meet marina rquirements while I search for soemthing better.

I would advise that you read your own policy.
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Old 18-04-2008, 16:25   #135
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By the time I lost my first boat on a Fijian coral reef , it would have cost me more in insurance premiums than it cost me to replace her. I also would have had to wait till I was much older to go cruising if I had insisted on insurance.I might never have left.
Keeping the boat inexpensive and simple is another option.
I have never had boat insurance when the construction insurance on my first boat ran out.
Being a singlehander, I wouldn't let any moneygrubbing insurance company tell me I wasn't allowed to go cruising without having to put up with two other people aboard. That would be like paying them to bar me from cruising.
I madeIi one health insurance claim with private insurance in my life with Travel Underwriters Worldwide mediclaim. They simply refused to pay . I've met others who have had the same experience with them. I thus have little confidence in the insurance companies keeping the promises I'd be billed for.
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