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Old 02-03-2008, 07:49   #91
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Originally Posted by hallie View Post
did you actually read my post? i have the boat. if i owe more than the value of the boat, i have nothing more to give. i see no justice in insuring for an amount in excess of what i personally have, because it's all i have to lose.

it's usual for folks to use hyperbole when they don't need it, so i'll clarify: when i say it's a choice between food and insurance, i'm not exaggerating.

i have a stake in making sure my boat is safe, for my own interests. tragedy can strike anywhere, surely, but i do my best to mitigate those risks. as i'm doing it for my own sake, you can be sure i'm holding myself to a high standard, even if you're in a slip next to me. that is an obligation, and it is satisfied.

but if you ask if i feel i should fatten a corrupt system *and* calm another's irrational fears in place of eating, it had better be a damn good reason. i can't, right offhand, think of any.

as on another thread, tragedy could sweep a number of boats out to sea in a storm, dashing one to death on the rocks under another. in that case, who owes whom? life owes you nothing, and no one on earth owes any more than everything they have. if my boat were lost, i will have lost everything. for anyone who feels i am ethically obligated to lose more than that, i hope you never have to find out if others would think the same of you.
I see Hallie's point on this one.

Her point is that she has X amount of net worth. If she scratches your megayacht, she will do all humanly possibly to make things right, and judging by her character, would probably leave a note if you weren't around.

So she (like me) would probably first start by doing the fix-it work herself - buffing out the scratch. If that didn't work, she would then go down the road of a professional repair, all in good spirit.

Her point though... is that if her boat is 100% of her net worth, and she isn't a trustafarian, rich retired person living off assets/pension, real estate owner, etc... then all she can possibly pay to fix the scratch in your megayacht is her net worth. And guess what? That's all you'll ever get.

Why? You can't collect more than someone's net worth without wage garnishment - and if you slapped Hallie with wage garnishment when she is already in a financial state where she is choosing between food and insurance, well... I think you'll be spending eternity in some firey pit! ha ha (I don't believe in that stuff, it's a just a saying)

Isn't this where your own insurance company comes in? If you've extracted Hallie's net worth, and you still don't have enough to fix that scratch on your megayacht, it's really up to your own insurance company to make up the difference, right?

So... I do see Hallie's point. If she hit my boat, I'd expect her to make it right somehow. If she burned down the dock, well... that's what my insurance is for. Her insurance or lack of doesn't have much to do with the total loss of my boat... although... as a mariner, I assume much more responsibility for my boat than most. My boat would not be in a situation where a dock fire could destroy it... which is her other point!

Be more responsible and don't rely on that magic safety net. When you most need it (think hurricane Katrina), it won't be there!
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:57   #92
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For the record... I have no car insurance. A beat up Hyundai requires none, and I've never been in an accident in my life, other than when somone hit my parked car in Boston not once, but twice. It was hit while I was sleeping in my apartment both times.

I think we'd have better boaters and better drivers if we didn't rely so much on insurance. Every time I get in the car (my wife too), we know it is our personal responsibility to make sure we pay attention and drive carefully. There is no room for error, so we don't make any.

Plus, screw the govt for trying to force insurance down our throats. I don't care what laws they pass on requiring me to purchase anything I don't want to purchase. I'll violate those laws until that firey pit from my last post freezes over.

Damn... just when I thought I was turning into more of a conservative, Hallie gets me all fired up. lol Then again, small govt *is* the definition of conservative, and any govt forcing insurance down our throats flies in the face of the conservative party's charter. Odd that it's not a conservative or liberal issue. It's more of a big govt / big corporation lobbyist issue.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:27   #93
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Insurance is needed to protect one selves and others. If we have an asset that can harm someone then it is our responsibility to protect others. Whether the asset be a 4,000 pound auto or a 40,000 pound boat. If I fall asleep during a transport and run you down I must make it right, if I wreck my car and injure you I must make it right. That is an obligation that must be met, if I can't meet that obligation then I should not own/use the asset. To say I am careful is not the same as being fiscally/morally responsible.

I have children so I buy life insurance. It is my responsibility to protect my children's future. It would be foolish to say I don't need life insurance since I have not died yet. Remember, the past is prolouge........

Anyway, enough of this subject, whether we agree or disagree I wish everyone fair winds. Time to pack for the Heineken Regatta.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:56   #94
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Boy, I really find it hard to believe that there are so many folks out there that feel they are not to be held responsible for the damage they do to others. They seem to feel that those with nice boats should protect themselves from irresponsible uninsured boaters. By all means go without hull insurance if you feel you can handle the loss but third party or liability is a must, and even more so if you have few assets. You are responsible for the damage you do not the poor guy you inflict it on.
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:09   #95
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Thanks Rick, agree totally....

Now for you non insurance advocates, just like uninsured car owners, get into an accident that maims someone and the uninsured party is screwed for life,and so is the injured party. its my insurance, even though I will probably get my boat fixed and my injuries looked after, and it sure is your uninsured ass...ets that will pay, it will have to be the courts that decide it all, I figure.....and who wants to go through that. and your life ruined because you have to pay forever..... all for a hundred bucks a month insurance......could you imagine a civil suit that is judged against you? ya you could say "well you cant get blood from a stone" but do you really think in a liability case you would be unaffected?

the little scratches are not the problem, we would love to pay out of pocket for those if we can afford it, its the liability issues that I get worried about.....

Driving a beatup hyundi with no comprehensive insurance is ok you pay for yourself, just dont screw me up with no liability insurance......

Done, I think I will look for insurance costs elsewhere.......

I know lots of people who take their chances with no insurance offshore and several have lost everything, the boat and everything, that's their choice, but if an accident occurs and we all know they are called accidents for a reason, they happen when you least expect, if they involve others be responsible.....I will.....
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:13   #96
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LOL!!!!! just one more thing and I will leave you red neck survivalists alone.....just kidding.....

how much do you all pay for insurance if you have it and how much liability are you forced to have?

Mark
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:53   #97
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Cars and boats are different.
Driving is a privilege granted by the government. There are enough boaters out there already who think they and their MY are more privilaged than you or I. How much liability do you have and think is enough? Should we give the 120 footer the right to dictate to you how much liability he feels you should have so he is comfortable?
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Old 02-03-2008, 14:40   #98
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Should we give the 120 footer the right to dictate to you how much liability he feels you should have so he is comfortable?
Under international maritime law you could bear a great deal of liability for those incidents where you may be involved. You might be judged right or wrong but if you are judged wrong there is almost no limit to your liability. It clearly exceeds most anyone's ability to pay without insurance. You neither get the luxury of making a mess and sailing off into the sunset nor the arrogance to say because you are not rich you never have to pay.
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Old 02-03-2008, 14:53   #99
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Well--I can tell you a tiny-tots version of how it works here. You are uninsured but have a nice home. I have a boat worth 200G say. You do fifty grands worhth of damage to my tub. I claim from m,y insurance who then recover the costs from your insurance (Gosh--you don't have an6y!) so they recover it from you. Welcome to the ranks of the homeless.
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Old 02-03-2008, 15:48   #100
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Under international maritime law you could bear a great deal of liability for those incidents where you may be involved. You might be judged right or wrong but if you are judged wrong there is almost no limit to your liability. It clearly exceeds most anyone's ability to pay without insurance. You neither get the luxury of making a mess and sailing off into the sunset nor the arrogance to say because you are not rich you never have to pay.

Being rich or poor is not the point. How much liability do you carry Paul? one million two million? Where I live down here in S Fl. there are hundreds of boats worth far more than that. Following the logic of some here you should carry enough liability to cover Jim Morans yachts because you might have an accident. So where does one fit in being morally or obligatory resposible liability wise. If You have a million dollar policy and wreck a 200K boat you are a wonderful responsible guy. But if you wreck a hundred footer worth 3 million you're an irresponsible boater dude and should have your house taken away and sold and your earnings garnished for a thousand years.
I'm with Sully and Hallie
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Old 02-03-2008, 16:22   #101
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But if you wreck a hundred footer worth 3 million you're an irresponsible boater dude and should have your house taken away and sold and your earnings garnished for a thousand years.
You don't have to like it. You are free to believe what ever you like. You still can be destroyed financially.
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Old 02-03-2008, 16:56   #102
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You don't have to like it. You are free to believe what ever you like. You still can be destroyed financially

That's the point and that's the way I want to keep it.
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Old 02-03-2008, 18:14   #103
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And in real life...

Can anyone cite instances where a an uninsured boat owner has been held liable for an accident and has lost all his/her assets because of this?

I am not advocating going uninsured (I have full insurance with a reputable company) but I want to know what the real (as opposed to imaginary) risks are.

How many of us are aware of cases where an insured boat owner has found their insurance to be worthless?

As far as I am aware going after someone's personal assets is a long, difficult process with the possibility of the assets vanishing as it happens.
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:09   #104
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You would have to look up law cases to find them--and I am not a member of any law firm so I do not have access--but one could Google something. In America they have no fault insurabce for cars II think--we do not here--so the same thing applies as for boats. Yopu crunch someone's car--they claim on their insurance which fixes the car anfd hands you the bill. You pass it to your insurance--but you have to notify them of the accident or insured event immediately as they may wish to fight the case on your behalf.

Once it hits the fan you notifu your insurer and shut up. Never admit liability.
If you have no insurer they will ask you for the money. If you do not pay they take you to cpourt and tyhe court makes a judgement against you--then the court can liquidate your assets in favour of a successful plaintiff. They do this via a public auction--

Not at all like tweety-bird land that some of us would like to imagine exists. It is called REALITY. You can not transfer assets after the date--or attempt to pre-date the transfer. That is very naughty and they will can your ass for that one.

No--if you damage someone's boat--you will end up paying for it one way or another. Putting everything into your spouse's name and declaring yourself bankrupt has to be well in advance of the event weith al transfers complete etc etc--

MUCH cheaper to rent third party property damage cover. This way you save big money--but you have to fix your own damage to your own vessel. If you are not at fault you have to claim your expenses from the insured person--and fight in court against some of the best legal brains around because they have good counsel on retainer.

Ho Hum. Lotsa luck!!
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:59   #105
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Mike,

None of this speaks to the case where your boat starts on fire so the marina tows it out and lets it burn and sink. If not in the marina it's easier. The fuel tanks leak about 100 gallons. In the US they have a nice orderly process for the cleanup of this environmental mess at your expense. In foreign countries they throw you in jail as a hostage until the debt is paid. Trials are not required.
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