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Old 01-03-2008, 15:50   #76
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[quote=Joli;139291]
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Originally Posted by minisailor View Post

True enough. But, someone also manufacturers your anchor gear unless you have a steel mill, foundry, forge shop, machine shop, mass spectrometer, mag particle....... You are trusting your boat to purchased parts that may have flaws that may or may not be visible to the naked eye.

Do you die check your gear annually? Do you perform ndt on your chain?
Joli
I did not magniflux my anchor or chain on purchase but I did inspect it thoroughly for any problems.
I and everyone I know out here has tested and retested their anchor gear night after night. I personally check anchor, shackles, chain every time it comes to the surface. How often do you get a chance to do that with a rental mooring.
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Old 01-03-2008, 17:26   #77
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*heaves sigh*

i don't see having insurance or not as a moral issue, any more than i see being poor (or fat, or black/green/polka dot) as a moral issue. like life itself, these are facts, not ethical choices.

i'm especially rankled by the sentiment that if you can't afford insurance, you shouldn't be on the water at all because you can't protect everyone else's interests who have boats out there. because of course, you can't - you have no control over the amount of money anyone else has, nor therefore the amount of monetary damage you could potentially do to anyone else's craft. a $1200 boat will never have more than $1200 damage done to it, e.g., but there's no limit how much a wealthy lunatic could spend on a vessel. if a collision, however slight, results in an amount of damage which that captain thinks takes everything you own to repair, then there is not much justice to be had but to give everything you own. if one thing you have to offer is an insurance settlement, offer that. but if all you have to offer is your boat, then that should be enough. ethically, fairly, and in a just world legally -- that would be enough. don't waste your breath arguing that blood should be juiced from every turnip.

so, choosing not to insure, you could lose your boat. that's fair, and that's your risk. but i disagree that you're ethically obligated to hold an insurance policy that covers any amount of damage to any other theoretical craft out there or you have no right to be on the water. it's elitist and illogical. and it goes against the idea that 'all men are created equal' and marches squarely onto animal farm territory where 'some are more equal than others.' i realize that the world in many practical ways operates to honor that sentiment, i just refuse to buy into it on a spiritual level, as it's the only protest i can make.
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Old 01-03-2008, 17:57   #78
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Hallie, if that is the case, I guess you dont have car insurance either?

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Old 01-03-2008, 18:27   #79
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[quote=minisailor;139397]
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post

Joli
I did not magniflux my anchor or chain on purchase but I did inspect it thoroughly for any problems.
I and everyone I know out here has tested and retested their anchor gear night after night. I personally check anchor, shackles, chain every time it comes to the surface. How often do you get a chance to do that with a rental mooring.
You miss understand what I say or I did not say it clearly (which happens often).

**** happens. Whether you own the ground tackle or someone else does, it does not matter. Not all parts are built to design spec's and parts fatigue. You can look at the part but maybe it is faulty?
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Old 01-03-2008, 18:31   #80
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Originally Posted by hallie View Post
*heaves sigh*

i don't see having insurance or not as a moral issue, any more than i see being poor (or fat, or black/green/polka dot) as a moral issue. like life itself, these are facts, not ethical choices.

i'm especially rankled by the sentiment that if you can't afford insurance, you shouldn't be on the water at all because you can't protect everyone else's interests who have boats out there. because of course, you can't - you have no control over the amount of money anyone else has, nor therefore the amount of monetary damage you could potentially do to anyone else's craft. a $1200 boat will never have more than $1200 damage done to it, e.g., but there's no limit how much a wealthy lunatic could spend on a vessel. if a collision, however slight, results in an amount of damage which that captain thinks takes everything you own to repair, then there is not much justice to be had but to give everything you own. if one thing you have to offer is an insurance settlement, offer that. but if all you have to offer is your boat, then that should be enough. ethically, fairly, and in a just world legally -- that would be enough. don't waste your breath arguing that blood should be juiced from every turnip.

so, choosing not to insure, you could lose your boat. that's fair, and that's your risk. but i disagree that you're ethically obligated to hold an insurance policy that covers any amount of damage to any other theoretical craft out there or you have no right to be on the water. it's elitist and illogical. and it goes against the idea that 'all men are created equal' and marches squarely onto animal farm territory where 'some are more equal than others.' i realize that the world in many practical ways operates to honor that sentiment, i just refuse to buy into it on a spiritual level, as it's the only protest i can make.
Friend, we disagree.

If you cause $35,000 damage to my boat I think you are obliged to make it right.

Sorry, stuff is expensive when it come too yachts and it is not right to ask my insurer to make it right?
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Old 01-03-2008, 18:39   #81
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i don't have car insurance. but i also don't have a car.

so there.

there were times, in my early 20's, when i could not afford the car insurance i was legally obligated to have, in order to drive my car. i also lived in a poorly designed suburban area where it was impossible, as there are only so many hours in a day, to get to work without one. so i had choices: quit work, or go without insurance and drive like someone who couldn't afford to crash. when you can't afford to move, what can you do? so i chose the latter, and i never hurt anyone. a certain amount of luck goes into it, i'm sure, but plenty of folks get away with it.. for a while.

everyone needs to live *some*where. we chose to live on a boat. are we failures because insurance is a luxury and we'd rather eat? i don't see it that way. some will. those people usually side with dubya on social policy generally, so i don't worry about them.

i try not to worry about the 'the solution is always SUE THEIR ASS' people, because there are so many. but nor have i begrudged people who honestly made good in whatever fashion they were able when i was wronged, either. it takes generosity and humanity all around.
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Old 01-03-2008, 18:57   #82
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i don't have car insurance. but i also don't have a car.

so there.

there were times, in my early 20's, when i could not afford the car insurance i was legally obligated to have, in order to drive my car. i also lived in a poorly designed suburban area where it was impossible, as there are only so many hours in a day, to get to work without one. so i had choices: quit work, or go without insurance and drive like someone who couldn't afford to crash. when you can't afford to move, what can you do? so i chose the latter, and i never hurt anyone. a certain amount of luck goes into it, i'm sure, but plenty of folks get away with it.. for a while.

everyone needs to live *some*where. we chose to live on a boat. are we failures because insurance is a luxury and we'd rather eat? i don't see it that way. some will. those people usually side with dubya on social policy generally, so i don't worry about them.

i try not to worry about the 'the solution is always SUE THEIR ASS' people, because there are so many. but nor have i begrudged people who honestly made good in whatever fashion they were able when i was wronged, either. it takes generosity and humanity all around.
Sorry to maybe sound rude but insurance for a Columbia 34 will not break the bank? Don't you feel obliged to others?
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Old 01-03-2008, 18:58   #83
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Nothing wrong with living on a boat, I did for 5 years and it was great!, but if for example I was beside you in the harbour, your boat caught fire and destroyed mine as well I would expect at the very least your insurance would cover it.

But this is a discussion that rightly or wrongly is a personal decision it seems for alot of marina's and boat owners where you are from, I dont think it is about big brother making you buy something that is not neeeded or the fact that if I dont have it I could be sued. I just want to make sure my assets are protected and if for example again your boat caught fire and someone in my family was insured whether seriously or not your liability insurance could cover it as well.....

I would like to know the costs, please........I guess that will be my investigation.....

thanks all for your input I didnt start this but I I have learned a little......
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Old 01-03-2008, 19:03   #84
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Nothing wrong with living on a boat, I did for 5 years and it was great!, but if for example I was beside you in the harbour, your boat caught fire and destroyed mine as well I would expect at the very least your insurance would cover it.

But this is a discussion that rightly or wrongly is a personal decision it seems for alot of marina's and boat owners where you are from, I dont think it is about big brother making you buy something that is not neeeded or the fact that if I dont have it I could be sued. I just want to make sure my assets are protected and if for example again your boat caught fire and someone in my family was insured whether seriously or not your liability insurance could cover it as well.....

I would like to know the costs, please........I guess that will be my investigation.....

thanks all for your input I didnt start this but I I have learned a little......
And that is why marina's now require proof of insurance. Some folks don't take responsiblity.
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Old 01-03-2008, 19:34   #85
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Quote:
Sorry to maybe sound rude but insurance for a Columbia 34 will not break the bank? Don't you feel obliged to others?
did you actually read my post? i have the boat. if i owe more than the value of the boat, i have nothing more to give. i see no justice in insuring for an amount in excess of what i personally have, because it's all i have to lose.

it's usual for folks to use hyperbole when they don't need it, so i'll clarify: when i say it's a choice between food and insurance, i'm not exaggerating.

i have a stake in making sure my boat is safe, for my own interests. tragedy can strike anywhere, surely, but i do my best to mitigate those risks. as i'm doing it for my own sake, you can be sure i'm holding myself to a high standard, even if you're in a slip next to me. that is an obligation, and it is satisfied.

but if you ask if i feel i should fatten a corrupt system *and* calm another's irrational fears in place of eating, it had better be a damn good reason. i can't, right offhand, think of any.

as on another thread, tragedy could sweep a number of boats out to sea in a storm, dashing one to death on the rocks under another. in that case, who owes whom? life owes you nothing, and no one on earth owes any more than everything they have. if my boat were lost, i will have lost everything. for anyone who feels i am ethically obligated to lose more than that, i hope you never have to find out if others would think the same of you.
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Old 01-03-2008, 19:42   #86
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LOL!!!!! too much!!!!!
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Old 01-03-2008, 20:19   #87
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did you actually read my post? i have the boat. if i owe more than the value of the boat, i have nothing more to give. i see no justice in insuring for an amount in excess of what i personally have, because it's all i have to lose.

it's usual for folks to use hyperbole when they don't need it, so i'll clarify: when i say it's a choice between food and insurance, i'm not exaggerating.

i have a stake in making sure my boat is safe, for my own interests. tragedy can strike anywhere, surely, but i do my best to mitigate those risks. as i'm doing it for my own sake, you can be sure i'm holding myself to a high standard, even if you're in a slip next to me. that is an obligation, and it is satisfied.

but if you ask if i feel i should fatten a corrupt system *and* calm another's irrational fears in place of eating, it had better be a damn good reason. i can't, right offhand, think of any.

as on another thread, tragedy could sweep a number of boats out to sea in a storm, dashing one to death on the rocks under another. in that case, who owes whom? life owes you nothing, and no one on earth owes any more than everything they have. if my boat were lost, i will have lost everything. for anyone who feels i am ethically obligated to lose more than that, i hope you never have to find out if others would think the same of you.
Lotta words.... but how are you gonna protect and PAY for the guy next to you if your boat damages his boat? Aren't you obligated to project your neighbor just as he is obligated to protect you?
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Old 02-03-2008, 00:00   #88
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Walking, Bicycles and Dogs

So no one should walk down the street, ride a bicycle or walk the dog because this could cause damage that is not covered by insurance?

And we could probably eliminate the majority of dinghys as well.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:50   #89
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As I already said, I would choose to have at least 3rd Party cover - but I can quite understand where Hallie is coming from.

In any event, I figure it is solely up to me to take whatever steps I consider appropriate to look after my own interests and not expect others to do so.......and if I feel that involves insurance cover then it is up to me to obtain for myself.
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:21   #90
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Sorry, stuff is expensive when it come too yachts and it is not right to ask my insurer to make it right?
If you have an expensive boat which you feel requires insurance, and that boat is damaged, then YES, you should expect, and I would expect, your insurer to make it right. Isn't that what you bought the insurance for?
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