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Old 27-02-2008, 17:06   #61
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Hey Calif, you need to see the film "the man who sued God" it threw up some very interesting takes on this weasel way out for insurance companies and tough questions for Gods representatives.
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Old 27-02-2008, 17:18   #62
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this weasel way out for insurance companies
.
My biggest problem with insurance.

My experience and anecdotes from others is they have their jobs in order.

Job 1. Pay nothing. Find a way to blame it on someone/thing else.
Job 2. Pay as little as possible. Find a way out of full responsibility.

That's how profits are made.
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Old 27-02-2008, 17:45   #63
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Originally Posted by minisailor View Post
Joli
Was the mooring that came loose a rental mooring?
Yes, it was a rental mooring but the ultimate blame ended with the maker of the mooring itself. The rings was welded but the weld material was ground away when they cleaned up the ring. Guess they forgot to relieve the ends?
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Old 27-02-2008, 17:53   #64
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"Inusrance falls under responsibilities and obligations in my book."

No offense meant to you Joli, but I remember (years ago) when boat insurance as it's known today wasn't even heard of. In fact the total of all my insurances combined back then car, house, health, etc. was only a few hundred dollars a year. perhaps two weeks salary. Today people can easily spend a third of their income if not more on insurances. Sailing represents the closet thing I can come to real freedom left to be had. I chose to go boating and accepted that which came with it. It bothers me when check book boaters and lawyers decide for me what they think I should be obligated to do to meet their list of requirements to make their responsible boater list. I respect your book as it applies to you, as long as I'm not forced to buy it, belive it, or live by it.
No offense taken. For our boat we pay about 1/2% of agreed upon value for full coverage. Other insurances cost what they cost. Not sure what to say there?

I think if we are around others the burden to protect others is ours, as such we need insurance to protect them.
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Old 29-02-2008, 10:54   #65
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Yes, it was a rental mooring but the ultimate blame ended with the maker of the mooring itself. The rings was welded but the weld material was ground away when they cleaned up the ring. Guess they forgot to relieve the ends?
Sorry for your problem, Rental moorings are my pet peeve, there is no need for them except for one person or municipality to profit from. There is nothing more secure than your own anchor. More and more we are hearing of mooring failures and the mooring companies don't want to hear about it if their mooring fails. It's up to you or your insurance company to pay the bills. If you ask the mooring company what's down there securing your boat you will get a blank look or a far fetched story in most cases. When you ask them if they are insured against the loss of your boat if their mooring fails, again you get that look or a meaningless answer. The only way to end mooring fields is for each of us to not use them. The more we use them the more they will put in for their profit and less space for someone choosing to anchor. Your safes bet is your own anchor, when you use it your safe, you can choose where to anchor and you don't have to pay someone $10 to $40 a night for the privilage.
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Old 29-02-2008, 12:15   #66
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Originally Posted by minisailor View Post
Sorry for your problem, Rental moorings are my pet peeve, there is no need for them except for one person or municipality to profit from. There is nothing more secure than your own anchor. More and more we are hearing of mooring failures and the mooring companies don't want to hear about it if their mooring fails. It's up to you or your insurance company to pay the bills. If you ask the mooring company what's down there securing your boat you will get a blank look or a far fetched story in most cases. When you ask them if they are insured against the loss of your boat if their mooring fails, again you get that look or a meaningless answer. The only way to end mooring fields is for each of us to not use them. The more we use them the more they will put in for their profit and less space for someone choosing to anchor. Your safes bet is your own anchor, when you use it your safe, you can choose where to anchor and you don't have to pay someone $10 to $40 a night for the privilage.
Hello Minisailor,

I didn't have a problem with the mooring field operator, the moorings are pulled annually and the gear is replaced every 5 years. Everything on the mooring was new and the operator was fully insured.

The problem was a faulty weld, the manufacturer (who is very large and well known) subcontracted the work, it was not done properly, and they did not check the work. The manufacturer ultimately shelled out multiples of 6 figures for boat repairs and some other amount to replace all the faulty product. The mooring ring failed at fraction of the load it was designed to carry.

They also make safety harness's, strobes, bosun chairs, drogues, life rafts,, shines a bright light on the "low cost bidder" huh?
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Old 29-02-2008, 14:34   #67
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One of the real problems we have in Australia is the ever increasing areas that have become National Parks. Locally we have the Jervis Bay Park. There are areas where you are forbidden to anchor. The Park however provides a few moorings which boaters are allowed to use for up to 24 hours. Unfortunately these moorings are designed to be good for the environment which is not the same as holding a vessel in bad weather.

The park requires users to have a public liability cover of 10 million to use the area. Some years ago now when we had a patch of crappy weather a yacht dragged the mooring on to a rocky outcrop. The damage was fairly minor but the owner approached the National Parks for the costs. They refused at first but the owner who was a Vietnam vet appeared on TV and the "Parks people" coughed up the $2500.

This is pretty much the future.
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Old 29-02-2008, 15:02   #68
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A lot of moorings have wind limits. Gotta be off them when it's blowing 40 or so.
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Old 29-02-2008, 15:45   #69
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One of our Friends was heading to the Bahamas a couple of years ago and the boat ended up on the Tapanzee Bridge after a mooring let go from the anchor sawing through the mooring line, the boat was rescued and almost salvaged if not for a sailor from Tarrytown telling the Police to take a hike and telling them that the boat was owned by friends of his. My Friends had gone to Dinner at the time.
The whole repair was covered by insurance, the mast, the bimini, sails, boom, hull repairs everything. The insurance company was very helpful.

I would like to make sure I have it when we head south, Stuff happens, it does!

I wouldnt want to learn that I wasnt covered or the other guy wasnt covered.
We even have to have $2M liability in our club, it protects me! my family, in the event of the stuff happening

So what does it cost to insure boats for offshore? My Friends I think paid about 1.5K for the year for the Bahamas, but they had to go in a weather window, so how do most do it staying in the Caribbean for a year? beyond the the year ? protecting us and the boat.

this is a good discussion!

Mark
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:56   #70
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[quote=Joli;139042]Hello Minisailor,

I didn't have a problem with the mooring field operator, the moorings are pulled annually and the gear is replaced every 5 years. Everything on the mooring was new and the operator was fully insured.

The problem was a faulty weld, the manufacturer (who is very large and well known) subcontracted the work, it was not done properly, and they did not check


Joli
Regardless of where the problem lies, either with the operator or the manufacture of the mooring, when your boat breaks loose you can loose your boat, if it's at night in heavy winds with you aboard it could be worst. If you use your own anchor which you have personally inspected you will eliminate the chance of loosing the boat, fighting with lawyers, insurance companies, loss time with you boat etc. You not only gain piece of mind using your own anchor you gain a big plus in not having to pay someone
$10 to$40 a night.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:34   #71
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[quote=minisailor;139262]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Hello Minisailor,

I didn't have a problem with the mooring field operator, the moorings are pulled annually and the gear is replaced every 5 years. Everything on the mooring was new and the operator was fully insured.

The problem was a faulty weld, the manufacturer (who is very large and well known) subcontracted the work, it was not done properly, and they did not check


Joli
Regardless of where the problem lies, either with the operator or the manufacture of the mooring, when your boat breaks loose you can loose your boat, if it's at night in heavy winds with you aboard it could be worst. If you use your own anchor which you have personally inspected you will eliminate the chance of loosing the boat, fighting with lawyers, insurance companies, loss time with you boat etc. You not only gain piece of mind using your own anchor you gain a big plus in not having to pay someone
$10 to$40 a night.
True enough. But, someone also manufacturers your anchor gear unless you have a steel mill, foundry, forge shop, machine shop, mass spectrometer, mag particle....... You are trusting your boat to purchased parts that may have flaws that may or may not be visible to the naked eye.

Do you die check your gear annually? Do you perform ndt on your chain?
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:21   #72
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Originally Posted by fawcettm View Post
One of our Friends was heading to the Bahamas a couple of years ago and the boat ended up on the Tapanzee Bridge after a mooring let go from the anchor sawing through the mooring line, the boat was rescued and almost salvaged if not for a sailor from Tarrytown telling the Police to take a hike and telling them that the boat was owned by friends of his. My Friends had gone to Dinner at the time.
The whole repair was covered by insurance, the mast, the bimini, sails, boom, hull repairs everything. The insurance company was very helpful.

I would like to make sure I have it when we head south, Stuff happens, it does!


Mark
Hate to say it Mark but that boat from MCC losing it's mast on the Tappanzee bridge could have been prevented if the skipper had secured the boat to the mooring properly! I know the boat and skipper but if he had secured the mooring line properly so that the anchor would not chafe it or put a slip line on the mooring he would not have had to go through all that strife. I'm from ABYC, know most of the guys from MCC that have gone south.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:22   #73
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True enough Rick, I agree and even he agrees with that, My question lies in costs of insurance going south offshore if we decide to.
I listen to him talk about their trip and I really listen.....I learn from others who have done it......that's what I love about these forums.....

We are planning to go in the next 3 years and we are preparing now, My wife and I are learning and investigating the costs.

People must have insurance but what are the costs? another friend went down to pick up a boat in NY island and he told me that that particular bridge is the line that the insurance companies here say is the limit we can go on our insurance and if we venture farther it will cost more.

Insurance in Florida, NC, SC, Virgin Islands, that much more than here on the Great lakes?

Mark
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:37   #74
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Mark,

I only go to the Bahamas. Insurance beyond that is prohibitive and I am not willing to proceed without it. In any event for what I do (6 months a year) the Bahamas is great. The cruising here is hard to beat and the waters are amazing. Most of my friends that went further went without it. Most of us from Ontario are covered for Gt Lakes, St Lawrence R . and maybe to Troy NY. Anything further you need a rider. I have had a few different ones. US east coast and Bahamas is relatively inexpensive or at least affordable. Some of the companies will not cover for the offshore bit NC to Virgins but you can get insurance once you're down there. As I said earlier most of my friends doing the Caribbean go without hull insurance.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:23   #75
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Hi Rick, I guess it means shop around? like R&R or McMichael Davis? I had Lloyd insurance the years I lived aboard in the winter, took a chance there, it seemed nothing was covered, ice damage, heater failure, engine freezing, power failure and damage from outcome, and I survived.......

I'd hate to think about an accident after paying all of the money for the boat, outlay for equipment, planning for the Cruise, getting underway, something happens, and have to stop, sell the boat, or worse.....but I guess that is the chance we all have to consider ourselves....

I guess I could handle the Bahamas for 6 months,,,,, ;-)

thanks
Mark
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